https://youtu.be/uIJmKDtNqAw?feature=shared

This week’s guest on Screenwriters Need To Hear This is, Actor, Writer, and Showrunner Kevin Heffernan.

Show Notes

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Autogenerated Transcript

Kevin Heffernan:
That meeting that we first had with you guys. Yeah. And we, we were at Dave, we were at we were at the three Arts offices. Yep. And
And I remember this cuz I was like, you know, let me and I, and you know, maybe you’ve come to realize this, but let, and I were, were a little bit more insecure about our knowledge about how to make a TV show cuz we hadn’t done it before. Right. And and I remember I kept in the meeting, we would have conversations like, he would keep saying things like well I don’t know. Cause we only make movies, you know, I don’t know. Cause he’s gonna make movies. Right. I kept saying that. And what I was trying to say was, I don’t know anything about tv. Right. But your partner Sivert, he, he threw that back in my face at one point. He does. He said, but I don’t know. Cause I only make TV, you know. Oh my God. Thought was the funniest fucking thing. I thought it was so fucking funny.

Michael Jamin:
Oh, thank God he didn’t take the meeting.
You’re listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin.
Hey everyone, it’s Michael Jamin. Welcome back to Screenwriters Need to Hear This, the podcast. I got another great guest for you everyone. Hope everyone’s sitting down. It’s Kevin Heffernan. He’s also my boss, so I’m gonna be extra nice for this. But I

Kevin Heffernan:
Like to think we’re coworkers, Mike. Well,

Michael Jamin:
He likes to say that, but meanwhile he makes him, makes me bring him lunch. I like to and rub his feet while he eats it. I like to

Kevin Heffernan:
But then you get somebody, you get somebody younger to bring you lunch to bring Correct. Isn’t that the way it works?

Michael Jamin:
And rub my feet. Yes. Right. Just kick

Kevin Heffernan:
It down.

Michael Jamin:
Fine. Kevin, let me give you a proper introduction for those. Okay. Who never, ever heard of you. First of all, he’s the star and showrunner of Tacoma fd. We’re in season four. We just finished season four right now. But also you may know him from from a million million movies. Supert Trooper. Supert Trooper Two Club, dread Slam and Salmon Beer Fest. Quai he’s one of the founding members of, and I’m of Broken Lizard, which is a comedy troop. And he’s also an actor. Everyone, please welcome to the show, Kevin Heffernan. Ron, can I applaud? You should definitely applaud, dude. Thank you so much. I, I have to say, and I’ve said this to you many times publicly, but I gotta say it, that everyone is listening. I always give you and Lemi a lot, so much credit for what you guys have done because like, the way I see my career, I feel like, I guess I’m like a Hollywood insider in the sense that I got hired by someone to be on a show and then I rose up the ranks. And then about halfway through my career, I noticed I was no longer working for Hollywood Insiders. I was working for basically Hollywood outsiders. People who made their own career and made themselves so desirable that Hollywood came to them and said, Hey, will you do stuff for us? And that’s what I feel like you guys have done.

Kevin Heffernan:
Well, it’s a little bit like I guess that’s part of the, in front of the camera thing that gives you a little extra allure, I guess. I don’t know. Or so, or a way to it does made,

Michael Jamin:
I think so. But when you started broken, you know, when you guys did your first broken lizard movie, you were just, you know, you guys did it on your own. Yes.

Kevin Heffernan:
Yeah.

Michael Jamin:
I mean, talk about that. How did you make that happen? You guys were just nobody’s.

Kevin Heffernan:
Yeah, I mean, well we, we were a, you know, a group that was, I guess we were kind of self-contained. You know, a lot of people, they get out of school, whatever it is, and they, they kind of join some other entity whether it’s, you know, some performance thing like the Groundlings or they go to a film school or whatever it is. And we just did it. Our, you know, we had five, well we had more, at the time it was like eight or nine folks. And then after we graduated from Colgate University, we went to New York and we started doing live shows and, and just doing everything soup to nuts. You know, we would, did did the acting and then directing, they’re producing the editing and the writing and that, that’s how kind of we cut our teeth in order to, you know, and then it was just kinda like, you know, Hey, let’s make some short films. Let’s, you know

Michael Jamin:
Where were you showing these films?

Kevin Heffernan:
Yeah. And then we would show the films during our live shows. So we would do, you know, sketch shows, you know, in New York City and the Village or whatever. And we’d haul this like 800 pound you know, 32 inch tv into the room. And, and then we would just shoot these short videos. And they’re essentially designed to show while we were able, you know, gives us a chance to change costumes and stuff, you know what I mean? It was, oh, it was a chance for us to have a, have a costume change and then we would start showing these videos. And then those were the things that always seemed to be really popular.

Michael Jamin:
And these were in like, small venues, like how big, how many seats?

Kevin Heffernan:
Yeah, I don’t know. 80, you know, would,

Michael Jamin:
And how would you get people to show up?

Kevin Heffernan:
Well, we, you know, we went to Colgate, which is kind of a, kind of a big drinking school. And so and a lot of people migrate, you know, when they, it’s in upstate New York, so they’ll graduate and they’ll, they’ll move down to New York City. So there was this network of people from our school who were kind of big drinkers and, and young and, and we just kind of put out the word and all the friends would come, you’d get, you know, 50 people in the room. And I remember after the first weekend, the, the place, we were doing a place called the Duplex, which I think is still there. It’s in like Christopher or Sheridan Square or something like that. Christopher Street. And the show would end and the bar, the guy who owned the club would walk in and the table would be full of empty beer bottles just full <laugh>. And and he’d be so happy. And he kept offering us more, you know, gigs more nights or whatever. And it was basically cuz our friends came and they drank beer and they had laughs and, and were you

Michael Jamin:
Hitting the door? Or how, how were you charging?

Kevin Heffernan:
Yeah, yeah. We, well probably, we probably got some real shitty deal. You know, we probably had some horrible deal. I mean, it was like we were begging for stage time around town, you know? And and these guys, you know, let you start on a Monday night, you know, or whatever, whatever shitty time is, or, you know, Monday at 10 o’clock or whatever, you know, Uhhuh <affirmative> and do the show. And, and we’d get our friends to come and then it was Wednesday night, and then it was Friday night, and then it’s, you know, Hey, you’re doing the whole weekend. You know, and it kind of, kind of grew that way, but, and that was, and we learned to write sketches mm-hmm. <Affirmative> when we were doing that, you know? And then did you

Michael Jamin:
Kind of, did you kind of learn in college though, when you were, you were writing sketches in college though?

Kevin Heffernan:
Yeah, we, we kind of self-taught. We, we, it was kind of later towards the end of our college careers where we started this comedy group. And my buddy Jay Chen Sekar, who’s, you know, still in the,

Michael Jamin:
There he is. Oh, we’re gonna plug that Quasi is the movie plug

Kevin Heffernan:
That, but that’s him. That’s Jay Chen

Michael Jamin:
Important. That’s the most important one. I’ve left that one out.

Kevin Heffernan:
Yeah. But that’s him. And then he had had some background in Chicago at the IO in Second City and things like that, doing improv. And always wanted to do a show at Colgate. And so he had gotten the opportunity through some student theater group. There was a guy who was like, Hey, why don’t you put up a show? And he was like, ah, I don’t wanna do it. I don’t wanna do it. And then ultimately, I think they gave him like 500 bucks, Uhhuh <affirmative>. And he decided to put together a group of people, and he and I were very close friends. And he knew that I was interested in something like that. And so we put together this group of folks, and it was probably like 15 people at that point in time and, and just started this comedy group. And we didn’t know, like we didn’t know how to do improv. We didn’t know how to write sketches, we know any of that stuff. And it was just, Jay

Michael Jamin:
Took one class, basically, and he’s like, I’ll, I’ll teach you guys how to do

Kevin Heffernan:
It. Well, he, he didn’t, he wasn’t even the teacher, you know, like he did. Yeah. Like, he did a, a summer, like <laugh> like
Guys. Yeah. And he’s like, yeah, I’ll try this. And we were miserable. I mean, we were horrible. But the, the thing in, in colleges and, and you probably have the same thing, it’s like, you know, I think a lot of comedy is, is is the, you have to laugh out of shared experience, right? So the audience says, Hey, I know that happened to me. You know, that’s why they laugh, right? So at college, it’s a very insular world that you can do that. So you can make fun of that professor and that security guard and that, you know, fraternity, sorority, whatever it is. And, and that’s the thing that you learn to write and that everyone laughs at. And so that’s how we started where you would just, you’d make fun of people on campus and people love it. And then you, in that way, you learn how to write and, and do characters and whatever, and Right.
You know, whatever. We were all fans of Saturday Night Live and Monty Python and whatever. And I think, you know, the idea was let’s just try to do that. And it was very simple because it was a, it’s like given a wedding toast, you know? It’s like, you know, everyone’s on your side, right? Everyone wants to laugh together, the same thing. And, you know, we started doing these shows there, and they were just super popular because there was nothing like it there. And people were, were happy to see us make fun of, you know, that professor or that, but

Michael Jamin:
Then at some point though, you had to branch out to a larger audience, though.

Kevin Heffernan:
Well, that’s the, that’s the, the terrifying thing is we got to, we moved to New York City afterwards and realized you couldn’t make fun of the dean or the professor or whatever. You had to figure out what the things are that more people would laugh at. And I think, you know, that’s the little of a learning curve. But we did that, and then you just start writing sketches and, and we started making these videos. But

Michael Jamin:
Then how did you still, how do you make this jump from, you know, selling tickets to friends, to selling tickets to strangers, basically?

Kevin Heffernan:
Yeah. I, it’s just, I guess it’s just word of mouth is, is the way, is the way it happens. Where it’s like, I, I, I remember, you know, people would bring their friends, you know, from high school and their other friends and whatever it is, and then all of a sudden you have a group of people who are into it, you know? And and then you’d have, you know, agents start to come and industry people start to show up. And really, they

Michael Jamin:
Were trying to show up. You, they weren’t, this is fascinating to me. So you didn’t even invite them, they would just show up.

Kevin Heffernan:
Yeah, well, you know, I mean it was kind of a fun time in New York at the time where there was kind of these two, there are different movements that were kind of happening. And one of ’em was the independent film movement, which was, you know, big. It was the Kevin Smith and, and you know, that kind of stuff where you, everyone was making, you know, low budget films. And then it was also, you know, kind of the growth of the comedy group. Again, I guess, you know, where U C B was just, just starting up in New York. And there was another group called The State that was doing stuff in they were outta nyu and they were doing shows. And so there were different kind of like, there was kind of a lot of burgeoning kind of comedy groups that were kind of in that same era. And, you know, people catch on. There was a, you know, M T V wanted to make a sketch comedy show, and they started scouting all these comedy groups, and they picked this group, the state, and they made the, they made their comedy show. So there was a, you know, there were a lot of people out there that had an appetite for, for this kind of thing. And, and you know, we were trying to capitalize on him.

Michael Jamin:
And the whole time you str all you guys were struggling, but you, you were also attending law school at the same

Kevin Heffernan:
Time? I did. I went to law school. I, I I I was working at a law firm for, for a couple years out of school. And then, yeah, I went, I ended up gonna law school during the day. Right. And then we would do these comedy shows at night. And they never, they’re very different worlds, you know, like, but I remember one time we were taking a tour of the courthouse with my law school class, Uhhuh <affirmative>. And somebody walked up to me who had seen the live show, Uhhuh <affirmative>, who was like, Hey, you are the comedian Kevin hen, da da da da. Not that I was famous anyway, but this guy just happened to be in, and everyone in my law school class has looked at me and like, who the fuck are you <laugh>? Like, they had no idea that I was, had that other thing going on. So. And

Michael Jamin:
Did that change the way they looked at you after? Like, they,

Kevin Heffernan:
I think a little bit. I mean, I was, you know, I, I was not a, a great participant in the law school world. I was kind of a back bencher. I’d sit in the back row and I didn’t really, I might crack a joke here and there. And so, but then, yeah, I think, I think they probably got a feeling of like, oh, maybe this is not his his highest priority, this law school thing. Did

Michael Jamin:
You, well, did you pa take the bar?

Kevin Heffernan:
I did, yeah. I took the bar. Yeah, I did. I we took the bar. Well, I graduated from law school, and then we made our, I graduated from <inaudible> May, and we were preparing to shoot the first feature film we ever made. We were preparing to shoot it in June. And so I started studying for the bar and I realized, oh, I can’t do this. I can’t do this stuff. And so I went to my dad and I was like, I’m not gonna take the bar exam. And he’s like, what? Are you crazy? And I was like, you know, he goes, you get all, you’re gonna get all through law school and you’re not gonna take the party time. I was like, well, I’m gonna take it, but I’ll take it, you know, six months from now or a year from now. Right. You’re not gonna do that. And I said, I will, I will. And he said, you know, he said, that’s insane. You don’t take the ball down to the goal line and not cross into the goal. You know, you

Michael Jamin:
Do it, you figure you’re in the New York Jets. That’s how they,

Kevin Heffernan:
That’s, that’s right. You know, there’s some people who just don’t get in the end zone <laugh>. And so I, and so we did it. So, but so we made the movie and then six months later I went back and I took the bar exam and I passed it. So,

Michael Jamin:
See, you’re a good boy now, but how did you raise the money for the movie?

Kevin Heffernan:
Well, that, like I was saying before, that was that era of like, people were bankrolling movies on credit cards, you know, and it was like you know, Kevin Smith or whoever it was, they, you know, made clerks for $30,000 or whatever it was, you know what I mean? So we at the time, j Chan Sacar had taken a couple N Y U film classes, and he was very much into it. He also had got started working with this guy as a, as an intern at this office of this lawyer. His name was John Slots, who had went on to become this huge, you know, independent film, you know, movie producer, icon type of a guy. And he represented all those guys, the link laters and, you know, the Kevin Smiths and Rodriguez, all these guys are making these kind of, you know, el mariachi, you know, they’re making these movies, you know. And so he got into his head like, let’s try to do this. And so basically we went around and we charged, I think the movie we made was called Puddle Cruiser, which was about 250,000 bucks. And most of it was charged on credit cards

Michael Jamin:
Between the five of you.

Kevin Heffernan:
Well, well, Jay did most of it. And then some of us did some stuff in, and then some, and people got like, some of their families kicking, you know, five grand here or whatever. But the thing with Jay was that, his name is Jay Chanter Sekar. And his parents were doctors. And for some reason, the credit card companies started to thought that maybe he was a doctor and they started sending him, they would send him these credit cards and, you know, he was a day, right? You’d get a credit card in the mail, you know what I mean? And you’d be like, ah, whatever. And you use it. And so he u you know, he just charged him up and but he,

Michael Jamin:
And he wasn’t worried about like ever paying it back. I mean,

Kevin Heffernan:
You know, I, I think ultimately he probably was, but that’s just what everybody was doing. Like, they were just putting the stuff on credit cards and that’s what we did. And we, you know, charged the camera package on credit cards and we did all that stuff. He

Michael Jamin:
Needed that much. That’s a lot of money. I’m surprised you couldn’t do for less.

Kevin Heffernan:
Well there are a couple things to it. Like, number one, we shot on 35 millimeter, right? Which was unusual. Cause that’s a very expensive film format. And at the time, people were shooting 16 millimeter and other things, something called Super 16. They’re shooting all these things. And but we wanted shoot on 35 just cuz we thought we could ha make the movie have more commercial appeal. Right. And so we did that. And and then also it’s just, you know, a lot of those movies were kind of like the adventure of one man or whatever. And we had like, you know, we al it’s always been our problem. We have five storylines with five guys and whatever. So the movie’s always kind of expanded a little bit. But yeah, so we went up to Colgate University we had written a, a, a, a romantic comedy like set in a college.
And we went up to Colgate University and we said, Hey, can we shoot this film? And we went, we made a big pitch to the dean, you know, former students, you know, doing this thing. And he said, Nope. And then he said, you’re, you’re not, you’re, we’re not gonna let you do it. And we said that, but that’s crazy. He said, look I’m the guy who puts my name on this thing, and you know, you’re gonna come here up here and make an animal house and then we’re gonna look like assholes. And then, and so we’re like, but we would never do that. You can read the script, blah, blah, blah. And so essentially what we did we went back and, and we told our friends, it’s like, like I said earlier with the people we’re all drinking, it’s a very networky school.
And we just reached out to everyone and we said, please reach out to this dean and tell ’em you support alumni’s you know in the arts. You, you support alumni in the arts and that kind of thing. And it was the, it was the age of the fax machine. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And they just, we gave out this guy’s fax number and he just started getting, he got probably like a thousand fax from faxes from you know, alumni and wow. And finally he caved. He’s like, okay, all right. You can do it. Just don’t have the school’s name anywhere in, in in the movie. Like, okay, what about insurance? You have to worry about that. Who, who is you? Yeah. Yeah. That’s part, I mean, that’s part of film. You know, you, you buy insurance. Okay. You paid for that wasn’t, wasn’t called.
Okay. No, well, they wouldn’t let us. They were very adamant about us, you know, using as little of their facility as possible. They, you know, we were hoping we, they would give us a dorm for us to stay in. They wouldn’t do that. And we couldn’t house anybody on the campus or any of that kind of stuff. So, but it’s so what I, it’s just so scrappy of you guys. It really is. It’s just, yeah. Yeah. No, I I, it’s totally scrappy and I, I give chance se a lot of credit for that. He, you know, he was very much in that camp of like you know, let’s go make a movie however we can. And and we did. And, and you know, we didn’t no idea what we were doing. And, and we didn’t know where to put the camera.
We didn’t know any of that stuff. And we had, you know, we had some professional crew folks that came that we hired, you know, from New York City, and they came up there and, you know, the DP and the Grip and the gaffer were guys who were a little bit more experienced than we were. And and, and we just shot this thing. And then we didn’t even know how to edit it. We’ve never, you know, edited a movie before and you just learned as you did it, man. And we did. So what we did, then we came back, we were and our buddy was a NYU film student. We would, he would sneak us in at night to the NYU film department, and we would use the edit machines. And at the time, at the beginning it was Steam Back. So it was like literally the film, you would put the film and cut the film. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, don’t do that anymore. But that, that, that was the end of that era. But we started cutting our films that way. And then, and then we turned, you know, on this particular movie called Puddle Cruiser, we moved over to computer editing, which was just starting then.

Michael Jamin:
So, wow. See what I, well, and I wanna talk about Quasi, which by the way, so Quasi Drops, this is your latest movie. It drops on four 20 on Marijuana Day Yeah. On Hulu. And everyone should go sit your, you know, whatever. It’s, make sure you watch this movie

Kevin Heffernan:
Marijuana Day,

Michael Jamin:
But, well, I saw, I don’t even know how much you changed cuz I went to a, a screening of it, what was it, a year ago? How long was that?

Kevin Heffernan:
It was yeah, it was March. It was March. Wow. Of of 20 21, 2 20 22.

Michael Jamin:
And maybe there was, was there maybe a couple hundred people who went to that? Who Yeah,

Kevin Heffernan:
We, we you know, we like to do that, to do the test screens to see where the laughs are or whatever. And we got about 200 folks. We did a screening room, screening Room, Warner Brothers, and then and it

Michael Jamin:
Went great. Every, I mean, everyone was laughing, everyone. So I’m, yeah. I don’t even know how

Kevin Heffernan:
Much, which is terrifying because you know, that the movie, and you saw that version is, that’s the, like, that was like the two hour plus cut. Right. You know, and that’s when you just, you know, you throw it out there and just see what hits what sticks, you know, and

Michael Jamin:
And a

Kevin Heffernan:
Lot did it with that one. And then since that version you saw mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, you know, we’ve been through doing test screenings. We get notes from everybody at the studio, all that kind of business, and we’ve whittled away another half an hour.

Michael Jamin:
Do you, do you find the Oh, really took a half hour? You finding you have more notes the more, the bigger the budget or No?

Kevin Heffernan:
No, I don’t think so. I mean, there’s more fear, there’s no question about that. You know, we, we, we, but we’ve never kind of like really kind of moved in that world a little bit. You know, we, we, we were very, we made, we remade the Dukes of Hazard, we did the Dukes of Hazard movies for Warner Brothers. That was like the biggest thing that we did budget wise, where that’s like, you’re spending 60, 70, 80 million and then all the decisions become very precious and, and very much my committee. But for us, I think the beauty is we’ve always functioned at a budget level where people kind of leave you alone. Right. You know, like, they might get adamant about something or whatever. You know, we, we had a few things on this movie that they were, they felt very strongly about. And we, you know, we’ll go back and forth, but for the most part, you know, we’ve never been in that horrible situation of, you

Michael Jamin:
Know, t Sibert and I, we, we prefer the world of low budget for that reason. Yeah. Do you guys feel the same way?

Kevin Heffernan:
Yeah. I mean, you, you just kind of fly under the radar screen. You know, it’s like you know, when, when we made the movie Beer Fest, you know, we made it at Warner Brothers and at the same time they were making like the first like, huge Superman reboot and, you know, the budget of our movie was like a week of catering, you know? Yeah. On that Superman movie. And they were so worried about that stuff that they don’t, they don’t care. Not they don’t care, but they just, you’re not a high priority. So like, they do your

Michael Jamin:
Thing. Bigger problems. Yeah. One of the fun things that I love, I I by watch ’em all your movies and it’s, I, I don’t know if you know, if you think about this, but to me it’s like fun to see the same guys playing different roles, often two different parts in the same movie. And it’s just, I don’t know, do you, are you aware of how much like joy that gives Keep people?

Kevin Heffernan:
Yeah, no, I mean, we love it cuz like, we’ll do that too. Like when we would go from movie to movie and intentionally try to put guys into different kinds of characters, Uhhuh, <affirmative>, you know, and, and, and that was the reason why. Cause we thought it was so fun to see guys do different things. I mean, this movie’s a great example because we do play multiple parts and guys play different kind of characters. But after we shot Supert Troopers, like for example like Jay Chanter Sekar who directed it, you know, and it was a hard thing. It’s a hard thing to direct a movie, you know, it was just kind of for a million bucks and whatever, and you’re always, you know, fighting the clock and you’re always fighting whatever. And so he would always kind of get dower at times, you know, and, and we’d have to remind him in his performance, Hey man, pick it up.
You know, we’re doing a comedy, don’t worry about that. Put that shit behind you. Whatever. Uhhuh <affirmative>. And so after Supert Troopers, you know, his character is a very straight kind of guy. We made a movie called Club Dread, and it was like, let’s go in the opposite direction. And we intentionally wrote Jay as like a Ponzi, British raaf, Farian tennis player, Uhhuh <affirmative>. And so with the intention of like, let’s give him a character that’s completely opposite of what he was. Right. And it ends up having the effect of being very cool, I think for people who like the movies cuz they see people play different kinds of characters, you know,

Michael Jamin:
But how do you guys even do that with five, because you have five equal partners writing. Like how do you decide who comes, is one person pitching an idea? How do you get five people on board to do anything?

Kevin Heffernan:
It’s, it’s pretty hard. I think it’s, I think we’re lucky that we started doing it together in college. Probably like, if, if we had been assembled like in, you know, at age 35 or whatever, never fucking made, it was like, you know, it’s like putting a like a, like a like the monkeys together or something, or whatever, you know what I mean? I, I don’t know that we would ever have been able to do that. Cuz yeah, there’s fights and whatever, but I I I think it’s really always come out of making each other laugh. And if, and if the rest of the guys laugh, then you’re like, oh, okay. I I think that’s, and you know, and, and the cra fights, you know, from casting point of view, we started getting into this practice and we did it from Super Troopers on where, for the most part, we don’t cast the movie when we’re writing it. And we don’t cast the movie till way later in the game because you, you find out that, you know, if you know what the part you’re playing, then you kind of start writing for yourself and your own part. But if you don’t know, then you write for everybody. Right?

Michael Jamin:
Oh, is that right? So, yeah.

Kevin Heffernan:
And so we made a very conscious effort early on that we would push, like, there, there are sometimes now like movie quasi, you know Lemi, we knew Lemi was gonna be the title character, but I think most of our movies, it’s like we wait till later in the game after the script has gone through multiple drafts, and then we cast it. And

Michael Jamin:
Then how do you decide who, I mean, how do you, what if I wanna be the

Kevin Heffernan:
Whatever that happens too. I mean, we, we I remember Super Troopers, you know, we wrote it, we wrote Mel multiple drafts. It was with many different companies and there are many different places, and we never really cast it. And then we decided we would sit down and we, the five of us, we sat down at a table and everyone read the different parts. And then it was a conversation. It’s like, you know, I think, I think you’re that guy, you know? And and luckily there was never a, a big fight. And then now it’s like, you know, like in the movie quasi, there’s a couple characters and it was like, Hey, I thought, you know, soda, you should be that guy and Jay should be this guy. And they were like, nah, no, you know, I think he’d be much better at that guy. You know, and they were right. You know, so it was like, it kind of, it’s the mindset of what’s doing best for the movie, which is nice. Right. right. And so we’ve never really gotten into those big fights because we just cast it later, you know? Is there

Michael Jamin:
A procedure though, when you guys do? Is there like a vote? Or like, how do you, how do you agree to settle shit?

Kevin Heffernan:
Yeah, I mean, I think like, usually it’s, I guess it’s the director who’s kind of settles it, but it, it, no, it’s just, it’s just by side who’s the director by democracy <laugh>, because

Michael Jamin:
You guys have also also, you know, swapped sometimes, you know, you direct sometimes, you know, sometimes Jay directs and

Kevin Heffernan:
Yeah. I mean, I guess we’ve done like seven seven kind of proper broken legend movies and he’s directed five of them. Yeah. And I’ve done two of them

Michael Jamin:
Now. Since you’ve done two, I don’t know why you do two. Isn’t it exhausting? I mean it’s, it’s exhaust, it’s a full-time job being a director, but then to also act Yeah. It’s, it’s twice as exhausting.

Kevin Heffernan:
Yeah. It’s, it’s, it is kind of exhausting. And you know, the funny thing on this movie I played two characters. We all played two characters, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And there’s, there was some days where my two characters were having scenes with each other. Yeah. And like, you’re standing there and you’re like, you’re acting against yourself and you’re directing the thing. Yeah. And it was just like, you’re like, what the fuck? Like, your head’s gonna fucking explode. You’re like, what am I doing here? <Laugh>? And like, the beauty of it is we have these five guys, we have the support thing. And so Lemi will be there, Chan Sa I’ll be there and they’ll be like, Hey, you know, you should look, look out for this or whatever. You know, there’s a good support group where Right. Luckily you’re not, you’re not hanging out there alone.

Michael Jamin:
And you’ve directed many episodes of Tacoma FD Do, how much do you, you know, what do you, what do you think, do you, what is your, what do you prefer writing, directing, acting? Do you have a preference?

Kevin Heffernan:
I don’t know. I, I always think of it as like as like the seasons, you know, it’s like whenever it’s winter you want it to be summer, or whenever it’s summer you wanna be winter. Yeah. Like, I always feel that way. Like whenever I’m doing one of the jobs, I’m like, God, I wish I was writing right now. Yeah. <laugh>. But I mean, I think that’s the beauty of the, the hyphen thing. It’s like, you know, it’s like you know, I just got through the editing process, right? And then which is a whole thing. And, and, and then by the, we’ve been doing six months and then by the end of that you’re like, Ugh. And now you know, we’re working on a project with you mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, and we’re working on a project with the Republican lizard guys. And you start moving back into the writing mode and you’re like, oh, thank God this is fucking great. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And then whatever, three months from now they’re like, God, I wish I was shooting. You know, <laugh>,

Michael Jamin:
It’s a shooting is ex especially being directory is exhausting. You gotta be the first one there and the last one out.

Kevin Heffernan:
Yeah. And then you gotta prepare for the next day. You gotta prepare. You should, at least you should, you know.

Michael Jamin:
Yeah.

Kevin Heffernan:
You know, but a again, like, you know, part of it that’s nice is the all-encompassing kind of thing of it where it’s like I don’t necessarily have to expend all the director energy directing an actor <laugh> mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, because I’m doing it. And I don’t have to spend, I don’t spend a lot of energy translating between a writer and a director and an actor. Which also is a, I think a lot of a director’s job is these kind of like interpersonal mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, you know, figuring out how to do that because we kind of do it all, you know, so there’s something kind of nice to that, you know.

Michael Jamin:
Yeah. Well, I guess, I mean, and I, again, I give you a lot of credit. It’s cuz it’s

Kevin Heffernan:
Well, but like, when you, when you’re having a problem on the set, for example, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and then you know, some scenes not working or whatever it is, and you’re in the middle of it as the actor writer and the director, you just kind of cart blanche to, to try to fix it. You know what I mean? Yeah. It’s not like you have to bring a committee together to try to fix something, you know? Right. There’s something nice to that there’s something nice to that.

Michael Jamin:
Do you, now, this Tacoma was pretty much your first was your, was it was your first TV venture, but now, you know, I know, I, I know

Kevin Heffernan:
How it was. Yeah. I mean, it was the first one that went, you know, like Yeah. The thing is that Lemy and I, you know, for many years, and you know, this, I mean, for many years we, we had been making TV or developing TV shows and selling scripts and Yeah. And you can go there. I mean, I think we sold a different script, like something like eight years in a row mm-hmm. Into, into TV season, you know what I mean? Right. And they just don’t go, they don’t go, they don’t go for whatever reason. You know, like I remember one year we sold one to I think it was B, c and we were so excited about it, and then we found out that they bought 80 scripts. Oh, <laugh>. Yes. And they’re, and they’re gonna shoot three of them. Right. Right. And what we found out was that these networks a lot of times will just kind of preemtively buy scripts Yeah. In order to be able to control the market. And, and it doesn’t cost them a lot just to have a bunch of things you know, options. Yeah. And then, you know, you’re, oh fuck. So I, I think as time went on, we were trying to figure out like, what’s, how do you get to the next step? Like how do you write the TV script that they’re gonna shoot?

Michael Jamin:
Yeah.

Kevin Heffernan:
You know? Mm-Hmm.

Michael Jamin:
<Affirmative>, what did you figure out? I mean,

Kevin Heffernan:
Well, it, it’s partly who you do business with. So like when we pitched com, we pitched everybody, we pitched the big networks and the little networks and you know, the one that they were the most excited about and the most that you got the vibe that this, they’re gonna shoot, this thing was true tv.

Michael Jamin:
Right.

Kevin Heffernan:
And, you know, we could have sold it to Fox or whoever it is, but we knew that those people were gonna shoot it. And that’s the battle.

Michael Jamin:
They told you that. I mean, some or

Kevin Heffernan:
Essentially, I mean, it’s like we, you can also know, like, you can say, you can find out how many they buy. Right. And out of those, how many they shoot, and out of those, how many get on the air and, and somebody like True who’s a smaller network, they can’t go out and buy 80 scripts. You know what I mean? Right. So what they do is they’ll, they’ll buy three scripts and you know that you have a damn good chance if it’s three scripts, you know,

Michael Jamin:
We would, when we sold shows back on network, you’d be optimistic at first, and then you’d read in the trades what someone else sold the show, maybe with some actor attach or director. And you’d go, all right, that’s one less slot. You, you just knew it, you just knew that’s one less thought to buy. Yeah.

Kevin Heffernan:
Yeah. And then you get to things like, let me and I were talk about this morning, we were like trying to remember, there was a a, we sold a script one year about stay-at-home dads. Right. I think it was called Kept Men and the Stay-Home Dads. And our wives had great jobs and we, we would just stay at home, take care of the kids, whatever. And it’s an idea that everyone has had. And I remember we, we sold it somewhere, I can’t remember, it was N B C or B ABC or whatever it was. And then we found out, I think it was B nbc, we found out that there were three other stay-at-home dads scripts that had sold Uhhuh <affirmative> to nbc. And then we found out that like, you know, one of the producers was Jimmy Fallon, one of the producers was Ellen, you know, one of the, it was, you know, whoever. And you knew then that your fortunes are getting, you know, less favorable. Yeah. And then ultimately they pick one of those, you know, they’re an nbc they’re gonna pick the Jimmy Fallon project mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. Cause Jimmy Fon is one of their superstars. And, and, and, and you know, so your, your discouragement kind of goes down as he gone. But that was always the thing was like, how do you get from the point where you sell that script to you make that script, which is really why we’re in this business.

Michael Jamin:
Yeah. Right. And and your eyes are higher. Well, it’s, it’s, so, it’s, I was, I would, I was gonna say your eyes are higher up getting a TV show made than a movie, but you’ve gotten <laugh> a movies made. So what am I doing? Yeah.

Kevin Heffernan:
I mean, I, I guess it depends on what the market has been. I mean, they’re just, sometimes, I, I only say that because I feel like it’s shifting a little bit again now, but there’s certainly, you know, when the streamers came in on top of the broadcast people, there were more opportunities, I feel like mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And at that point the films were shrinking for a number of reasons, just that it’s so expensive to put a movie out. Yeah. you know, that, that as the movie companies get bigger they will not take chances on certain comedies. You know, like we, when we made Beer Fest at Warner Brothers, we were like, why don’t you guys just make a shitload of, you know, 15 million comedies and try to make a lot of money outta ’em? And then cuz they said, cuz we’ll make one Harry Potter <laugh> and it’ll make more money than 115 million comedies. Right. Everyone’s

Michael Jamin:
Swinging for the

Kevin Heffernan:
Home run. Yeah. And, and that’s why, and that’s what we’ll do. And so there was a lot of that vibe. So I think that’s part of why, you know, we were like, you know, let’s take a shot at tv. There’s a, there’s a better home for comedy. You know, at that point, I think. Yeah. and it, and it was, you know, and, and when we sent up for True tv, you know, their, their motto has kind of changed. But at the time they were trying to build a comedy network and they had Andrea Savage and Amy Sedaris and, you know, Bobcat Golf Weight and all these guys had shows. Yeah. And they were, that they were trying to make these comedy shows. So it seemed like a good, a good fit for us.

Michael Jamin:
And I had a question, I just now <laugh> now I just lost it, but, oh, I was gonna say. So, but you also have acted on other, you’ve guest art on plenty other, on other shows, Goldberg, but Yeah. Do you, but do you prefer, like, do you have a preference even, I don’t know, doing other people’s material, your material? Do you care at all?

Kevin Heffernan:
I, I, I don’t mind people’s material, but I love writing our material and doing our material. You know, it’s like, it’s like the, it’s like the standup thing. It’s like, you know, the beauty of doing standup is that you can write a joke and then perform the joke and get the reaction from the crowd. I, I kind of feel the same way about performing our own material, you know?

Michael Jamin:
But I know you and you guys used to do a lot of performing standup, but you don’t, you haven’t done that in quite a while and you don’t, what’s the plan? Do you miss that at all or what?

Kevin Heffernan:
Sometimes I do. Sometimes I do. You know, I think it was something that we I mean some of the guys in our group have a background like, you know, chance Sakar has, you know, stand background or whatever. But I had never had it really. And then it was that last, it was the last writer strike whatever, 2008, 2009, whatever was that, when was that? Like,

Michael Jamin:
It was 2008. What? Yeah. What did you guys do during that?

Kevin Heffernan:
Well, we were, you know, we had made our movie of Slam and Salmon and we had to make it independently cuz no studios were buying. And then, you know, nobody’s making a TV shows. We couldn’t sell anything. We couldn’t write anything. And so we had one of these kind of live standup agents who was like, look, you guys have notoriety now. You can go around and do a show, you know? Yeah. And, and make money. You know. And so it was like, oh, okay. And so we put together this show in, I think it was 2008 or 2009, you know, come in, in the strike. And we went on tour and we did whatever, I, I can’t remember, we did like 20 or 30 show cities or whatever it was. And and it was like it, it, it, it kind of morphed over time.
But it was like, you know, we would put our Supert Troopers uniforms on and go do a supert trooper sketch mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And then a guy would do, you know, 10 minutes of standup and then we’d do a beer fest sketch and then guys would do 10 minutes of standup and then whatever. And so I think that was when the vibe for live comedy for us kind of really grew. We were like, oh, this is great. This is cool. And there’s an audience. Like there’s a, there are fans of ours. It’s not like we have to go Yeah. They

Michael Jamin:
Come see you. Yeah.

Kevin Heffernan:
Yeah. Like we used to go and, you know, walk around Washington Square Park and hand out fucking postcards. Come see our show, come see our show come now. We don’t have to do that. You know? So Isn’t that amazing? That was nice. And so then that’s why we got into standup cuz cuz we started doing that. And then I, I had never really done standup and I had a blast. And then it got to be the end of that tour. And then it was, the agent was like, does any of you guys, you guys still wanna go do some standup? I’ll book you. And then lemme like, yeah, we’d love to. Let’s do it. And so we went probably for eight or nine years we traveled.

Michael Jamin:
Now when you were doing this, were you literally on the road? Were you on the road the whole time? Were, were you fly back and forth to California?

Kevin Heffernan:
No, no. We were like you know, 40 year old guy standups, you know, it’s like if we were the 20 year old standups, we would be like in a car driving around, but we would No, you’d go out, you’d do two weekends a month or whatever, you know, and you’d go out and you’d do, you know, a Thursday, Friday, Saturday shows

Michael Jamin:
And then fly

Kevin Heffernan:
Back. And then fly back. Yeah. Yeah. And so but you know, probably eight or nine years we did it, you know, we would do, you know, I don’t know, maybe 20 weekends in a year.

Michael Jamin:
Hey, it’s Michael Jamin, if you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I’m not gonna spam you and it’s absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.
It’s, it’s so interesting. I again, cuz you guys are just like, when I hear so many times, you’re like, people are like, well, how do I sell my screenplay? And my voice is always, you don’t and just do what you’re, build it yourself, do it. Stop asking for permission, and that’s exactly what you guys did. You just did it.

Kevin Heffernan:
Yeah.

Michael Jamin:
You know?

Kevin Heffernan:
Yeah. I mean, that’s the same advice that we give people too. It’s like, you know, and whatever the, the, the kind of the world changes a little and you know you know, there are different ways to do your own thing. You know, I mean, when we started, people didn’t have camera phones or Right. <Laugh>, you could have

Michael Jamin:
Made that movie

Kevin Heffernan:
Equipment or you know,

Michael Jamin:
You instead of 250,000 you could have made that movie Yeah. For a fraction of that. Right?

Kevin Heffernan:
Yeah. Yeah. And, and so people, I think people do have that opportunity and, and, you know, they can go shoot a movie on their phone or whatever it is. And I mean, in that way, you, you at least learn how to write and act and where to put a camera and how maybe how to light something or whatever. Its Right. Right. but that, that’s what we always say to people is, is do that. You know, write your own stuff and go do it.

Michael Jamin:
Do you find, because I mean, I’m jumping around here, but you ob you collaborate a lot either with five or four other guys, or sometimes you work with Lemy or with the writing set. Is it, you know, do you find that you don’t, that you know, you don’t really get to use your voice that you’re always, it’s, it’s more collaborative? Do you miss or do you crave doing something just with your own voice or anything?

Kevin Heffernan:
I don’t know. I never thought about that. No, I don’t think so. No. I like, I like the collaboration thing. Right. I, I don’t, I mean, whatever we’ve worked together for, what, four years now? I don’t, I’m not super precious. I, I, and I, I I’m not like a dig my heels in guy I don’t think. Maybe I am, maybe you’ll tell me differently. But I think, you know, I think I, I, I like, I love getting, you know, seeing other people write some good jokes and whatever. Right, right. It’s a, and I think it’s probably born out of the fact that I’ve always been in a group, you know, and I’ve always been with these five, you know, I was with these five guys and, you know, you learn the value of having other people’s perspectives and whatever. So I, I don’t know. I, you know, I like standup. I, I, I really enjoyed it and it was fun and it was fun to go and tell stories and whatever, but I, you know, I don’t know if there’s something I I like more about, probably about the TV or movie world

Michael Jamin:
Because even directing, like as a showrunner, you could, you still have ultimate the final say on anything. So if you had someone else direct, you do, I know you have other people direct episodes, but I wonder like, you know, why, I guess why, you know, what’s the, what’s the appeal of doing it yourself when you still have ultimate control anyway?

Kevin Heffernan:
Right. Right. You mean like, why not have more people?

Michael Jamin:
Yeah, I mean I, no, I, I

Kevin Heffernan:
Just think, well that’s, that’s, you

Michael Jamin:
Know, exhausting. It is. That’s,

Kevin Heffernan:
That’s O C D and control and control issues, Michael.

Michael Jamin:
Oh, so that’s why you, cuz you really want, you just want to get it done. You

Kevin Heffernan:
Well, no, that’s what my kids will say. They’ll say that I have control issues. That’s right. May, that may be the case that I, I like to do things myself, but,

Michael Jamin:
Oh, well. But, but, but that’s what that kind of speaks to what I’m talking about is like, okay, well you’re do you are getting your voice across cuz you ultimately making, well, you know, so many decisions. But yeah. And so I don’t know what, what advice do you have for, for young people breaking in? Do you, you know, are you getting swarm by this? You know?

Kevin Heffernan:
Yeah. It, I mean, you know, it happens. I mean, you get it right? You get people and they wanna send you. I

Michael Jamin:
Get it. But you, I’m, I think you might get different questions from me. You’re, you’re, well, I

Kevin Heffernan:
Guess, I guess other, you know, I mean, yeah, I get other questions.

Michael Jamin:
You get recognize you walk on the street and people know who you are and

Kevin Heffernan:
So Yeah. How do I become an actor, you know, and get that. Yeah. And, you know and it’s hard. Like I, you know, I try to help people out, but I, you know, you know, there’s not, there’s like a, some sort magic bullet. Like, you know, guys in this industry, I mean, no matter how long you’ve been there, you me, every day we try to figure out how to keep our careers going. Mm-Hmm. You know what I mean? <Laugh>, it’s like, yeah. It’s like I got enough trouble, you know, trying to get what I, you know, I don’t know what my next project is, you know? Right. And, and it’s and every, it’s a fight. I don’t care if you’re Martin Scorsese or whatever, it’s always a fucking fight. Yeah. And so, you know, you try to impress it on people, but you don’t wanna be, you know, the doom and gloom guy.
You know, I, I, I did a, our buddy who’s a producer, rich Perlo, who produced these our movies, he teaches a class at Columbia and, you know, LUMY and I zoomed into the class the other day and there’s a lot of those questions, you know, and, and I, we got off and I was trying, I said to him, God, I’m to Rich who teaches the class. I said, I’m really sorry. I hope we didn’t come across as these doom and gloom guys. Cuz we, you know, our point was it’s very hard and you gotta work hard and nobody’s gonna give it to you. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, there’s like all these kind of like, you know, myths of you know, being discovered this, that, the other thing. But it’s like, you know, we’ve been pushing the rock up the hill for, for many, many years. Yeah. And it’s just accumulation of relationships and experiences and whatever that kind of get you going that way. You know,

Michael Jamin:
It’s, it’s, yeah. Sometimes people say to me though, they wanna send me scripts. I, I’m not the guy, I I’m not the gatekeeper. I’m not the guy. I’m, I’m the same guy as you are. Try <laugh>

Kevin Heffernan:
Trying to Yeah. You want me to do, you know, I mean, and, and you know, like you can’t read their script cuz then you do violate various kind of legal things, you know?

Michael Jamin:
Yeah. I’m not doing that. Yeah.

Kevin Heffernan:
Yeah. And I remember the first time we ran into that, I think we we had just gone to college and Jay and I wrote like all these spec jokes and sent ’em to the Letterman show. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And they just, and you, like four days later you get the envelope back unopened. Yeah. with a return to sender thing on it. And there’s a, a form letter, it says, we do not read unsolicited material, you know? Yep. Oh,

Michael Jamin:
That’s, that’s the end of

Kevin Heffernan:
That. And so that’s, you can’t even, you can’t do it that way. So you just have to work. And I, I tell these guys also, you know, you think about some of the people who work with us, like in our writer’s room, right? It’s like we have this great woman Hannah who she, you know, wants to be a writer and she wants, or at least wants to work in the industry. And, and you know, we said, well, you know, you can start, you know, at the bottom. That’s how, that’s how you do it. You know. And so she came and she was, you know, an intern unpaid for a while, and then she was a pa and she worked right up and da blah da. And then, you know, she got to do some stuff in our writer’s room, you know, essentially the secretarial elements of it, you know, which she did last year. And and that’s the way you do it. You know, you start at the grunt level and then you make relationships and you keep going, <laugh>, you work your

Michael Jamin:
Way, right? People wanna start at the top, Mike, you don’t get to start at the top. You gotta start. No.

Kevin Heffernan:
And you meet all the people on the way up. You know, the guy who is my, now my, my PR guy, my PR agent, who’s a pre reputable guy in the business now. He’s like, I don’t know if you remember, I met you, you know, many years ago. And I was like, is that right? And he goes, yeah, I was an assistant on the desk of this producer mm-hmm. <Affirmative> that you guys are doing a project with. And you would come to the office and you’d like, oh. And he said, you’re very nice to me. And I, I was like, oh, glad, I’m glad to hear that. Yes. <laugh> and <laugh>. Now here’s that guy. He’s, you know, this big PR guy who, you know is very successful in the business, you know? So it, it’s just, you know, there’s no way that people are gonna put their script in there and become this, you know, the next Oscar winner until they work their

Michael Jamin:
Right pe people are gonna think that you have listened to me talk on social media. And I know for a fact you haven’t because you’re saying that I’ve already said, which is Oh, okay. You know, I told a story as well where I was, I can’t, we were going to pitch a show and the person we’re meeting with is young executive. He goes, you know, we, we’ve met before. And I’m like, oh no. I’m like, cause I don’t remember the guy. And I’m like, already, I just tanked the meeting. And he goes, yeah, I was a, I worked on a desk and you were nice to me. And I was like, oh, thank God. You know, you gotta be nice to people cuz they, you’ve gotta be nice to people cuz they’re not gonna stay in that desk

Kevin Heffernan:
Correctly. That’s why I tell everyone, you wanna know the key to Hollywood, be nice to the assistance. Yes. Because they’re, they are the gatekeepers and then ultimately they will move on to other jobs. Yeah. So they benefit you in many different ways, but if you’re just a nice person

Michael Jamin:
Yeah, I say that as well. Don’t kiss my ass, kiss the ass of the assistant. They’re the ones I’m getting

Kevin Heffernan:
The door.

Michael Jamin:
Yeah. I’m not gonna help you. But they might help you.

Kevin Heffernan:
But then it’s all, you know, whatever. It’s all relationships. We, you know, I, like you said, I didn’t do a, we’d never made a TV show before, you know? And we relied on certain people like you to help us do that. So

Michael Jamin:
Now, and now you don’t need us anymore. But don’t, don’t.

Kevin Heffernan:
Well I, I like to, I like to have you though.

Michael Jamin:
You like to have my little nap, little

Kevin Heffernan:
Laptop. No. You know, it’s funny, I, I vividly remember that meeting that we first had with you guys. Yeah. And we, we were at day, we were at we were at the three arts offices. Yep. And and I remember this cuz I was like, you know, let me and I, and you know, maybe you’ve come to realize it, but lemme and I were, were a little bit more insecure about our knowledge about how to make a TV show cuz we hadn’t done it before. Right. And and I remember I kept in the meeting, we would have conversations like, he would keep saying things like well I don’t know cause we only make movies, you know, I don’t know. Cause we gonna make movies. I kept saying that. And what I was trying to say was, I don’t know anything about tv. Right. But then your partner Sievert, he, he threw that back in my face. <Laugh> <laugh>. At one point he said something he said, but I don’t know cause I only make tv, you know. Oh my God. That’s the funniest fucking thing. I thought it was so fucking funny.

Michael Jamin:
Oh, thank God he didn’t tank the meeting.

Kevin Heffernan:
No, no. I mean, I, I thought it was hysterical because that’s exactly how it sounded. Uhhuh <affirmative>. But but we all knew what we were really saying to each other. You know what I mean? Right, right. But good cause you know, he, he made a joke of it and I thought that was very funny. I I always remember that. I always

Michael Jamin:
Think about that. Oh, that’s so funny. Cause he, he’d be embarrassed. I think if you, if you mentioned that we had a meeting once, I don’t wanna say what it was, but it was not a, it was on a Disney show and you know, <laugh> and he didn’t want the job, but it was a job. And and he tanked. Siver tanked. He didn’t mean to, he just kept on putting his foot what wasn’t

Kevin Heffernan:
Intentional tanking.

Michael Jamin:
Right. He was not intentional tanking <laugh>. And, and actually thank God he did. Because after that we got What did he do?

Kevin Heffernan:
Like what did you do to tank it? Like what was it, was he just saying bad shit?

Michael Jamin:
He was trying to, he was trying to be not, he was basically saying, how do you know if this is funny? Like, he’s basically saying, none of this is funny to me. How do you know if it’s funny?

Kevin Heffernan:
Okay.

Michael Jamin:
That’s coming out. And it was just the funniest thing. And he was trying to cover up and, and I was trying to help him dig outta this hole. And it was just getting worse <laugh>. And afterwards he felt terrible. He felt, cuz it’s not what he was trying to do, he just felt terrible about it. But it worked out for the best.

Kevin Heffernan:
And you clearly did not get the job.

Michael Jamin:
We did not get the job. No one, only an idiot would hire after that job. But and I, I didn’t make him feel bad. He felt terrible. But I was like, don’t, don’t worry about it. This is not the job for us.

Kevin Heffernan:
<Laugh>. <laugh>. See, you don’t want it. Like, if they don’t get, you know, you don’t want

Michael Jamin:
Yeah, it was, it was a, it was very awkward. But we do

Kevin Heffernan:
That in a lot in our careers though. Like, I feel like there was certainly, and certainly in that time period I talked about where we were just selling, you know, TV scripts. You re you think about like, I I just want to, I just need to make some money. I need to do this. I need you going to get this door and whatever. And then, I don’t know, there, I think that point in time where we started doing standup and whatever, I was just like, ah, fuck, fuck it man. I can’t, we had been hired so many times to write scripts for people and, and you know, it didn’t go anywhere that they, you’re like, what the fuck, who the fuck is this person giving me comedy notes? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And finally you’re like, Ugh, I don’t wanna do that anymore. Yeah, yeah. I just wanna make a TV show.

Michael Jamin:
Yeah. And, and, and, and you get, you know, it’s actually, I I think it’s, it’s more gra I don’t know, I say this never having made a movie, but I don’t know. It’s like you get to shoot it, you write it and then you shoot it and then it’s up in the air in a matter of months. And they get Yeah. You could do work in film, not you guys, but most people work in film and they never get a, you know, anything shot. They can have a

Kevin Heffernan:
<Crosstalk>. Yeah. I mean that’s the Yeah. But that, that’s, that’s also the weird thing about movies too. And, well, it’s a little different when these movies now this, this streaming stuff is just a little bit different. It’s, it is a little bit more in the TV world, but movies are kind of like gotta, I don’t wanna sound like a, I’m shitting on it or whatever, but I, it’s, I love it. But there is like this thing with this, this buildup and you’ve worked on this thing for years and then it gets to that first weekend and then that’s it. Whether it’s, you know, successful or not successful, you’re done.

Michael Jamin:
It’s all about opening weekend.

Kevin Heffernan:
Yeah. It’s over. Like, you know, like, there’s not like a, and I’m not saying that in a bad way, I’m just saying it’s like, it’s like, it’s like kinda stepping off a cliff, you know what I mean? And then you’re done. Like tv, the beauty of like Tacoma 13 weeks in a row, you got in something new story that’s coming out.

Michael Jamin:
Right. And it can build

Kevin Heffernan:
And it can build and it’s a new thing. But

Michael Jamin:
Never what

Kevin Heffernan:
Understood that finite thing, you know?

Michael Jamin:
But I never understood that with a box office. If you tank on your opening weekend, like, well why can’t it build, grow? Like why can’t it grow in the second weekend? Why can’t, the word of mouth

Kevin Heffernan:
Why can, and it does at times, but it doesn’t ma like the, the metric the bar is, is how you do in that first weekend. So like,

Michael Jamin:
That’s what you’re measured up. But why don’t they consider the overall gross? I mean, I don’t, you know.

Kevin Heffernan:
Yeah. I, it just, it doesn’t know. I don’t know. Cause it, it just, it’s all pushed by that opening weekend. You know, like our, like our movie like Super Troopers. It did, you know, it did okay. It did nothing. Nobody who we were. But you know, it was at the height of the kind of DVD era, which is they were, you know, printing money in that era. This movie studios were. Yeah. And we would see, you know, quarterly reports for, you know, Fox or whatever and Super Troopers would be listed in them cuz it would be making so much money for them. Yeah. Not in theatrical, but on the DVD market. Right. And you’re like, well, why aren’t we though? You know, the guys that you sing about. And it’s, it’s cuz it’s still the industry still driven by opening weekend.

Michael Jamin:
It’s so Still is. Yeah. Because it became a cult hit. I mean, you guys are, you know, you really have a, a cult following. I mean, and then loyal, you know, they, they show up you’re fans.

Kevin Heffernan:
Yeah. And so that, that was the great thing. So this trailer came out and in the first 24 hours at 8 million views.

Michael Jamin:
Is that right? Yeah. How did, how did that now where did they drop where? Okay. How does that work when they drop a trailer on the, we’re on YouTube.

Kevin Heffernan:
Yeah. Well, they aggregate it. So they, they measure YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, TikTok. They measure it all. Uhhuh <affirmative>. And they aggregate the views

Michael Jamin:
8 million within how long?

Kevin Heffernan:
24 hours. It’s

Michael Jamin:
Pretty amazing. I mean, that’s,

Kevin Heffernan:
It’s amazing. And, and you’re like, holy shit. Like, you forget, you know, but there are people out there that like what you do and

Michael Jamin:
Oh yeah. I mean, let’s

Kevin Heffernan:
See what’s next. And

Michael Jamin:
The movie’s a scream. I mean, everyone’s gotta go see it. I mean there’s just, I don’t wanna say there’s one laugh in particular where, you know what it is. I don’t wanna say what it’s, but the place went nuts. I mean Yeah. You know, the, the room went crazy.

Kevin Heffernan:
Yeah.

Michael Jamin:
And one of the biggest laughs I’ve ever heard <laugh> ever in the theater. <Laugh>.

Kevin Heffernan:
I mean that, I guess that is also, I mean that’s the beauty. You, you’ve seen the movie with an audience, you know, most people won’t.

Michael Jamin:
Yeah. That’s,

Kevin Heffernan:
But people won’t, which is kind of interesting, you know?

Michael Jamin:
Yeah. And that’s too bad too.

Kevin Heffernan:
I think so. I mean certainly for these kind of movies, but that’s just, you know, that’s the nature of comedy right now. There there are, there have been, you know, since, since we’ve kind of come out of the pandemic world, there’s, I don’t think there’s been a comedy that’s been a success in the movie theater yet.

Michael Jamin:
Yeah.

Kevin Heffernan:
Only kind of the bigger budget stuff, which, you know, I get that. But it’s unfortunate because, you know, laughing in a big theater with other people is, is a fun way to

Michael Jamin:
Watch it. Movie. Yeah. Oh yeah. And it’s, and it’s contagious and Yeah. Speaking of contagious, we did see it during the play, during the <laugh>, during Covid. So we were wearing, yeah. We were all wearing masks.

Kevin Heffernan:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s true. We watched it in masks.

Michael Jamin:
Yeah. And people were still laughing. So interesting. I don’t know

Kevin Heffernan:
<Laugh>

Michael Jamin:
It was, yeah. Laughing. But everyone was loving it, man. I, I mean, yeah. Go, it drops on Hulu on the four, on April 24 20.

Kevin Heffernan:
I it’s the you know, marijuana holiday, although my dad, he didn’t understand. Like, he, he’s like, what, what’s this big thing with 420? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And, and I was like, what? You don’t know what four 20 is? I know what 420 is. It’s Hitler’s birthday <laugh>. And I was like, what? Is

Michael Jamin:
That true?

Kevin Heffernan:
I didn’t know that. Yeah, he, it’s Hitler’s birthday, 420. I was like, how do you know that <laugh>,

Michael Jamin:
I have my arm.

Kevin Heffernan:
He like, he’s like, I have a friend whose birthday is 420 and we make fun of ’em for being born on Hitler’s birthday. So that’s why I know. I said, well, it’s also a kind of a marijuana, it’s a marijuana holiday. And does

Michael Jamin:
That work

Kevin Heffernan:
For him? <Laugh>? And then, you know, you gotta try to explain, you know, four 20 and I and <laugh>,

Michael Jamin:
He’s not the right audience.

Kevin Heffernan:
It’s not the right audience. But, you know, they did the, they put Super Troopers too, that it was just kind of the search site, the studio that made this movie. You know, and they made the Super Troopers movies and they were adamant about releasing Supert Troopers two on 420. Cause it fell on a Friday. Right. To the point where they waited nine months. Right. The movie just sat there for nine months. Cuz they were like, we wanna release it on 420. And we were like, Ugh, ugh, ugh. You know, and then ended up being Right cuz it definitely contributed to kind of like the vibe of the opening weekend. And it was one of the better opening weeks we had. And it was part of, because it was treated like a, like a holiday.

Michael Jamin:
Yeah. And that’s marketing, that’s part of the brand. And so

Kevin Heffernan:
They’re, they’re in a, you know, they didn’t hesitate for a second to do this one on four 20. So

Michael Jamin:
Yeah. It’s part, it’s part of, part of the brand is like this rowdy college kind of. And

Kevin Heffernan:
That’s fine with me.

Michael Jamin:
Why not? I mean, you know, you know, I just watched, I just Rewatched Animal House. I hadn’t seen it in, you know, I don’t know, 40 years or whatever. And, you know, it’s fun. It’s, it’s that kind of, that kind of thing. It’s just fun. So

Kevin Heffernan:
There’s shit in that movie you can’t get away with now

Michael Jamin:
Though. A lot of stuff. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know,

Kevin Heffernan:
And that was what, 70 19 79, right? Or what, what was it? 79?

Michael Jamin:
Probably. I think it was even, I don’t remember. Yeah, I think it might have been earlier. I mean, it was Belushi. When did he die? So I don’t know. Yeah. yeah. And so, so there’s so much, so much interesting stuff in that you watch it. Oh wow. Karen Allen’s in this, I don’t remember her. Karen Allen being

Kevin Heffernan:
The Yeah. Donald Sutherland.

Michael Jamin:
Yeah. Donald Suland didn’t remember that. Yeah.

Kevin Heffernan:
He did beer. He was in Beer Fest with us. But you also, people don’t remember

Michael Jamin:
Right.

Kevin Heffernan:
He was in Beer Fest. He was in the opening scene of Beer Fest.

Michael Jamin:
Right. And that was another, that was another funny movie. I mean, he was an

Kevin Heffernan:
Asshole, but That’s

Michael Jamin:
Okay. What was he really <laugh>? Yeah. Was he like, he was like, in what way? Can you say he

Kevin Heffernan:
Curmudgeon, he’s very curmudgeonly. You know what I mean? And I, you know, I don’t know if he was, it was, it was part of what his character was, but he was he was not the friendliest guy in the how funny. And I remember You’ll like this. He he was sitting in his character’s in a hospital bed chugging beers. And, and then he dies. You know, it’s just an opening. It’s like, and it was literally like,

Michael Jamin:
Oh, right, right now I remember that like

Kevin Heffernan:
For three days, not three days, I mean three hours. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and the Executive Warner. But said, Hey, we can get Donald Sutherland to come do, we’ll just pay him. He’ll come in, he’ll, he’ll do this scene for half a day. And then you’ll have Donald saw in the movie. You’re like, fucking awesome. That’s great.

Michael Jamin:
And then he’ll go home and cry.

Kevin Heffernan:
Well, I guess, I dunno why <laugh>? So he, he comes and he’s, and he’s there and he was just, he was just cantankerous, you know? And he was like, yeah he was looking at the script and he’s like, pulls Jay over who’s directing? And, and he is like, this script, this line right here. What does this mean?

Michael Jamin:
Uhhuh? Oh God.

Kevin Heffernan:
<Laugh> Jay’s like I don’t, it means this, that and other thing. He goes, no, no. He goes, where’s the writer? Where’s the writer of this uhoh? You know, we all wrote it. It was a bias. Right. But Jay, you all point. Yeah. So Jay decide to throw me under the bus on stand. Right There. He goes that’s the writer right there. Kevin come over corner <laugh>. And I, and I walk over to him and he is like, you know, this line here, what is this supposed to mean? Yeah. And I said, and I, and I was like, well, and I read the line and I said, he goes, he goes, no, no, no. I don’t want a line read from you. I want you to tell me how my character is supposed to interpret this line. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I was like, ah. And I, whatever made up some bullshit. I mean, it’s a fucking guy in bed drinking beer and you’re about to die. Right. You know, there’s not, you need to workshop it with me, <laugh>. You don’t need

Michael Jamin:
To workshop it.

Kevin Heffernan:
And so but he was so Kent anchor and, and so, you know, Eric Slansky played his grandson, I guess it is. Right. And so, you know, Eric comes in and, Hey Mr. Suland, I play your grandson in the thing. And he is like, oh, great. He couldn’t have, couldn’t have fucking cared.

Michael Jamin:
Right.

Kevin Heffernan:
<Laugh>. And he is like and so he, you know, to his grave, he did a great job. And he did, he sold it. Like, he, he must have chugged, I don’t know, 20 fucking beers, like just sitting in a hospital bed.

Michael Jamin:
It wasn’t non-alcoholic. He gave regular

Kevin Heffernan:
Beer. It was non-alcoholic. But I mean, like literally he, he, you know, he drank all the fucking liquid, you know, which,

Michael Jamin:
But how did, and how did you resolve that line though?

Kevin Heffernan:
I don’t know. I just made up some bullshit. I’m like, you know, and I think it ultimately he just kind of scoffed Right. And realized he would have to work out himself, you know?

Michael Jamin:
Well, and just shoot me, you know, George Siegel and George Siegel was the sweetest man. He was a

Kevin Heffernan:
Really good, yeah. Yeah. I did I did Goldbergs a couple scenes on Goldbergs.

Michael Jamin:
Oh, right, right, right

Kevin Heffernan:
Guy. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:
So he’s a sweet guy. And he had a problem with one scene, <laugh>. And he said to one of the writers, we’re all on the stage, and he said to one of the writers, you know, I was nominated for an Oscar and the writer was Marsh Mcal. He goes, yeah, it was a long time ago. George, get in the Dunking booth

Kevin Heffernan:
<Laugh>.

Michael Jamin:
And, and did George’s credit. He thought that was hilarious. Put him

Kevin Heffernan:
Down to Earth. Little bit

Michael Jamin:
<Laugh>. But he thought it was so funny. He was so sweet. But it was pretty funny to yeah,

Kevin Heffernan:
No, I, I, you know, whatever I make fun of, I mean like Dallas Soms great. I think he’s a fucking great actor. I love him. But we didn’t end up being best friends.

Michael Jamin:
Yeah. It’s sometimes hard to admit your, your heroes. It’s sometimes hard day not to do that sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. Now, before I, before we we wrap up, I have one more qu one more big question for you. What is it, I’m changing gears though, when you are hiring new writers, is that people wanna know this. What do, what do you guys look for in a script when you’re reading?

Kevin Heffernan:
I think good jokes. Really. It’s jokes. Yeah. Because, you know what I think, you know certainly on a writing staff or TV thing, I, I feel like if you can write jokes, you can do a lot of things. And I feel like that’s the best way also to get your voice, to feel what, what your voice is. You know what I mean? Because like, people write bad, you know, can write, they write jokes badly. Right. Or they can write jokes. Well, or there’s like, I feel like that’s where you get that little bit of spark of individuality in those scripts. Okay. Right. Is like, is when you see them make the attempt at, you know, whether good or bad. You know, it’s like, here, here’s the thing, cuz so I mean, I think, I think we look to see if the person can be a joke generator.

Michael Jamin:
Interesting. What we do. Because when, you know, and when we’re in the room, I don’t even know how you feel about this, but when I’m pitching Terry, the character, you play like, I’m doing you, I’m imitating you, I’m imitating your voice. Same as I’m doing his mannerisms

Kevin Heffernan:
<Laugh>. Right, right, right.

Michael Jamin:
And how does that make you feel when, when I’m doing that to you? That I

Kevin Heffernan:
I think that’s great. Like, let me and I talk about how you guys are the best writers for Le Me’s character. Like all like of everyone. Even Lemy himself, Uhhuh <affirmative>. Like we, when we read the Eddie Pese scripts that you guys have written. Right. It’s always the best, always the best jokes. But is that, are you talking about like, I guess I was talking about when you hire someone, right? That’s what I like when you hire someone and you get a script to read from them. No,

Michael Jamin:
That’s what I’m talking about.

Kevin Heffernan:
See if they’re Yeah.

Michael Jamin:
Yeah. Well then I change gears on you because I don’t

Kevin Heffernan:
Know. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. But I think, I think I love that you know, I love when you guys write Eddie Penni

Michael Jamin:
Because that’s how you get the voice. You know, it’s

Kevin Heffernan:
The voice. But like you, Eddie Pese is slightly slimier. Yes. <laugh>. Slightly <laugh>. It’s slightly dirtier.

Michael Jamin:
I know

Kevin Heffernan:
<Laugh> and you can always modulate that. Right. But I feel like your guys, Eddie Pese pushes the envelope a little bit more.

Michael Jamin:
Yeah. It’s like slightly slimier and sitting right next to the guy. I’m thinking slimy is pretty funny. Well, he

Kevin Heffernan:
Lo he loves that

Michael Jamin:
<Laugh>.

Kevin Heffernan:
He wants he wants that slimy. That’s so funny. Sliminess. But I think that’s, I mean, I think that’s, that’s pretty funny. But I, I guess for you guys, I mean that’s, that’s something that you’ve learned to do, obviously right. To, to when you, when you’re on the staff of a show, you know that it has to come outta the mouth of the person.

Michael Jamin:
Yes. But yeah, and I say that because this is kind of the, kind of the first time in your career where you’ve had other people write for you other than, you know, the broken lizard guys. But it’s all Yeah. Is your college buddy. So it’s a little bit different. But this is outsiders putting words in your mouth. So I I I wonder if that was strange for you.

Kevin Heffernan:
I, it, it’s, it’s all, it’s kind of funny for me and let me, I laugh about it every once in a while where like, like if I say something that I don’t like in the world or whatever it is or something, you know, a pet peeve or whatever, and then all of a sudden start showing up in the script. Yeah. And then there are a few episodes this season, season four <laugh>, where they’re just like, rant episodes,

Michael Jamin:
Uhhuh

Kevin Heffernan:
<Affirmative>, where it’s like in the writer’s room, either me or Lemy or someone else said something about what they hate

Michael Jamin:
And Yeah.

Kevin Heffernan:
And it’s in the script. Like we were looking through one of ’em, <laugh>, and it was like a, like, it’s just a fucking machine gun of of things that I hate or let me hate. So like, there’s one episode that’s all about Eddie Pei hating flavored seltzer water.

Michael Jamin:
Yes. Right. Which was from the room.

Kevin Heffernan:
Which is from the room, which he really does hate. Yeah. and at the same, in that same episode, it’s like I went on a rant in the editor in the writer’s room about how I don’t like song parodies.

Michael Jamin:
Right.

Kevin Heffernan:
And you know, like the weird al the AK stuff, I, I don’t love song parodies. And so the whole episode about how Eddie doesn’t like seltzer water and I don’t like song parodies

Michael Jamin:
<Laugh>, it’s,

Kevin Heffernan:
To me, that’s the weirder stuff. Cuz then like, you watch it with your family and they’re like, holy shit Dad, you don’t like glitter either. Why does it, you know, whatever this Yeah. Funny about that. Where it gets spun and it’s usually not written by me. It’s written by. Right. You know, some, one of the other writers

Michael Jamin:
S observing you, there’s nothing safe. Anytime <laugh>, you’ve seen something, it’s gonna Yeah. And your pro, it’s going in the script and that’s, it’s, which is great

Kevin Heffernan:
Because you know what, that’s the, the authenticity, you know, that’s the, you know, the fact that I hate song parodies, you know, it’s hard to come up with that out of the blue. You know, it’s like you, you come up with it because somebody has that, that’s part of their character in real life. And then that becomes the joke, which is always the best material. Yeah. It’s always the best plot lines.

Michael Jamin:
When we were doing maron, I would imitate maron. It’s the same way. And, you know, to his face in the room. And I always felt like he was gonna, he’s gonna punch me. <Laugh>. Did

Kevin Heffernan:
He get mad about that?

Michael Jamin:
No. Well, I remember one time I said, I pitched a line. And he goes, I would never say, I go, dude, you have said this <laugh>. And he’s like, I do. I’m like, you know, we put it in because it was like, oh, I, he didn’t realize he’s talked like that. But yeah, there was one scene even we were shooting it in a his character was in rehab getting out of rehab, and he was making a speech to, you know, like a, like a graduation day speech. And the way we wrote it was, it was very ungracious and he was kind of a dick in the speech, which it was funny. And, and he was in writing s the whole time he signed off on the whole thing. But on the day of the shoot, like he’s reading it as if he had never read it before. And he pulls me aside, he’s like, he’s like, Jamin, what, what is this? Wh why am I such a dick in this scene? And, and I was like, oh no. And I was like, well Mark, because I said it very polite. I said, this is the day he punches me. I’m like, well Mark, cuz you can be a dick. And he just looks at me and he goes, okay, I get it.

Kevin Heffernan:
<Laugh>. Well that’s good. I mean, that’s big of him, right? I mean

Michael Jamin:
Oh yeah. And he crushed it. He did it great. But that’s how you, but you know, that’s, I always wondered, have

Kevin Heffernan:
You had those people who were, who get angry? Like, you know, I mean, that’s kind of like almost got angry at you, but like, you know

Michael Jamin:
Have I had people? No. No. A lot of times you’ll talk to an actor, you know, you have lunch with the Akron, then it, whatever they told you in confidence will be in the next script.

Kevin Heffernan:
I mean, I don’t know. I guess, you know, like I said before, you, you just can’t get too precious about any of it, you know, or else just not be funny.

Michael Jamin:
Well, Kevin Heifer, are we wrapping up? Is that, is that what, did I get the light?

Kevin Heffernan:
Yeah, that’s your Kevin, that’s, oh, you know, let’s, we remiss. Yes. I wanna, I wanna say Tacoma FD season four. Right. a lot of people wanna know what’s going on with it. So we have, it’s done, it’s shot, it’s edited. I finished editing it like, whatever, two weeks ago. Yeah. And they’re just finishing up some you know, I don’t know the, the last bullshit or whatever, but 13 episodes done and now we’re just waiting for the network to put it out. They said don’t summer,

Michael Jamin:
Don’t they haven’t announced the date yet. They’re telling,

Kevin Heffernan:
Not yet. We’ve been trying to get them to announce the date. And they’re, you know, I tell, I’ve told you this, just these corporate mergers, right? So now a new company has taken over that company and there’s new people and they’re trying to figure out how the thing works. So, so they’ve assured us that we’ll be out soon and they’re just trying to figure out what their program schedule is. But this summer,

Michael Jamin:
I gotta say, of all of the rooms we’ve worked in, this for sure is definitely one of the most fun. And that’s a lot. That’s saying a lot given the last two seasons have been on Zoom. I mean Yeah. Two or three. Two or how many have you done on Zoom two?

Kevin Heffernan:
We did two, two Zoom seasons, which is crazy.

Michael Jamin:
But you guys keep it fun, which is important because it’s hard to maintain, you know, focus on a Zoom call.

Kevin Heffernan:
Yeah.

Kevin Heffernan:
But yeah, but I I You think that’s the way of the world or No,

Michael Jamin:
I, I know some shows are doing partial Zoom now. Yeah. Or like they’re doing partially in person. I, I wonder, I wonder, I mean, I think is isn’t it time to go back to do it in

Kevin Heffernan:
Person? I think it is, but the, the issue isn’t, and knowing, you know, on the producer Orial side of it, I mean, the issue is they figured out how to do this without paying for the overhead of a writer’s room and it’s whatever it is. I mean, it’s like 40,000 bucks or whatever it is for, you know, rent and whatever. And it’s, and lunch have to pay, you know? Do you really think

Michael Jamin:
That’s what it’s

Kevin Heffernan:
Oh yeah, I know it’s, I know it’s, yeah. Office rental and parking place spaces and you know you know, whatever it is, it’s, you know, it’s probably more than that now, but, but yeah. So’s them they not to pay.

Michael Jamin:
I know. Whatever it is, it’s really not that much money though. Yeah. I mean, writers, we don’t need much. We just had a table of a large table in whiteboards. That’s it. Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

Kevin Heffernan:
That’s what they, but I mean, knowing that they, you know, don’t have to pay that amount of money and they could, you know, whatever, then they’ll, it’s gonna be hard to get over that hump. I mean, I think at some point we will, or, you know, people will be like, yeah, look, if we get the better material this way or whatever.

Michael Jamin:
Wow. Interesting.

Kevin Heffernan:
But it also has created this world where, and you’ve lived this and I have not lived this, but the 2:00 AM you know, in the writer’s room thing, you know what I mean? Yeah,

Michael Jamin:
Yeah. That’s hard.

Kevin Heffernan:
There’s not, that doesn’t exist anymore. I mean, as far, you know, certainly not in our world, but I don’t think it exists.

Michael Jamin:
I don’t know. I I, yeah, that’s a good question. I don’t, yeah, I don’t know. I have, I have friends that are, I have to talk to friends who are doing, still doing network shows. We haven’t talked about that. Yeah. Because so, so people, people are doing network shows anymore. So it’s hard to

Kevin Heffernan:
News. Yeah, I know. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, I don’t know if that people think that’s a positive or negative that they don’t have to be there at 2:00 AM probably a positive.

Michael Jamin:
Oh yeah. I think it’s a positive no one, I mean, you don’t get great work after, after dinner. I mean, you’re tired, you know?

Kevin Heffernan:
So I mean, I, I feel like we’ve tried to, in the seasons, just try to make time together and not,

Michael Jamin:
But even still, you guys have to, we, we do all that pre-product pre-production and then the staff gets released basically. And then you guys are on your own for the most part. Yeah. And that means a lot of rewriting on your part. And

Kevin Heffernan:
I mean that, the s scripts are great. I mean, it’s not, you know, I, I don’t remember a whole lot of rewriting, you know, once, once the staff was done. I mean, you know, we were, we’ll rewrite stuff here and there and jokes, whatever, but it’s, you know, I don’t know. I, I feel like we get outta the writer’s room and we’re, we’ve got, you know, 13 pretty good scripts.

Michael Jamin:
Right. You’re

Kevin Heffernan:
So we change stuff, the improv stuff too. I mean there’s, you know that Cass is great at that and there’s just

Michael Jamin:
Tons of Yeah, you guys leave a lot of room for improv. Yeah.

Kevin Heffernan:
And so that’s, you know, things might sometimes look different out of that, out of the writer’s room. But

Michael Jamin:
Let me was telling me that he, that he would, you know, when he watch his episodes, when you guys are improving so much, he’ll, he sometimes says, God, I wish we’d just shut up. I gotta watch all this stuff now. <Laugh>,

Kevin Heffernan:
That’s what was like, it’s like the takes become nine minutes long cuz

Michael Jamin:
This riff happens and then it goes this way and then you turn around and shoot the other one. You gotta do it again. <Laugh>. we were looking at this trailer and it’s a, you know, two and a half minute trailer. I, I would say, you know, they try to hit like, you know, five or six big jokes or whatever. And, and, and, and the majority of ’em are improv jokes. Oh really? This trailer. Yeah. So it’s like, you know, you get a lot of good jokes that way. That’s what happens when you put a comedy troupe in, in a movie. That’s right. But also, like, you know, the me the more seasons you do together with that cast in Tacoma, everyone’s comfortable how comfortable they are, you know, and, and people who are not that experience than that get better at it, you know?
Yeah. You guys have done a great job. It really, the Tacoma’s a fun show. Quasi is a great movie. Everyone should watch that have a beer and or, or on four 20, whatever. It’s, you need to do whatever you do and enjoy it and enjoy the hell no. You’re gonna, you, you, you still have to watch Season four Tacoma. It came out great. It’s the best season so far. You think so? Or you just saying that? Well, I think just cuz everyone knows what they’re doing better. You know what I mean? Yeah. Well, I mean, not not just reading for a writing point. Just acting and directing and producing and whatever. Everyone, everyone does a better job. Yeah. I I I hope that we get another season. That’s good. Let’s do another one. Knock on wood. That’s what I’ll say. Knock on wood. Yeah, knock on wood.
Kevin Heffernan, sir. Give me a hug. Thank you so much. Pleasure. Thank you so much. Everyone run out four 20 on Hulu. Quasi. It’s not gonna be, it’s not gonna be a quasi hit. It’s gonna be a major hit. Sure. It’s gonna be a full hit. Full hit. Full hit. All right everyone, thank you so much. Stay tuned for another episode. Thank you Kevin for, for joining. And then thank you Mr. Jam. Thank you Mr. Appreciate it. Don’t go anywhere, Kevin. I’m me. Sign off. All right everyone, thank you so much. Until next week and yeah, keep listening, keep writing. Okay.

Phil Hudson:
This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you’d like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving a review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today’s subject. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook and TikTok @michaeljaminwriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

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Michael Jamin, Showrunner, TV Writer, Author

Michael Jamin

For the past 26 years, Michael Jamin has been a professional television writer/showrunner. His credits include King of the Hill, Beavis & Butthead, Wilfred, Maron, Just Shoot Me, Rules of Engagement, Brickleberry, Tacoma FD and many more.

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