I’ll tell you I’m talking about. When I first started sharing my professional journey, I focused on people who were interested in screenwriting. But over the years, my audience has expanded to include all sorts of creative types: actors, artists, novelists, playwrights, performers, and more. With that said, I’m rebranding my podcast. I’ll still talk about screenwriting, but I’ll interview a wider variety of people living their own creative lives. I hope they’ll inspire you to do the same.

Show Notes

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Autogenerated Transcript

Michael Jamin:
But also it’s like when you put energy into something legit energy, not like thinking or dreaming, but when you actually do the work, things

Phil Hudson:
Have a way of

Michael Jamin:
Manifesting like, oh, there’s opportunities have a way of appearing because

Phil Hudson:
You’ve put work into it.

Michael Jamin:
Like these various

Phil Hudson:
Press opportunities

Michael Jamin:
That I’ve done and other things that have sprung out because of that. That’s just from doing the energy

Phil Hudson:
Of posting on social media

Michael Jamin:
And just sharing as much knowledge as I can.

Phil Hudson:
You’re listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking

Michael Jamin:
About?

Phil Hudson:
I’ll tell you what I’m talking

Michael Jamin:
About. I’m talking about creativity, I’m talking about

Phil Hudson:
Writing, and I’m talking about reinventing yourself

Michael Jamin:
Through the arts. Hey everyone, it’s Michael Jamin and I’m new. I’m all new right now because I’ve done a rebrand on the podcast. It was called, obviously Screenwriters Need to Hear this. And then Phil and I were talking and we kind of wanted to open up the conversations a little bit so it’s not just about screenwriting and so it’s more about, I was really getting to talking about people doing all sorts of creative things. I just think it’s inspiring. We’ll still talk about screenwriting of course, but I wanted to open up the conversation to more people who are doing things that hopefully inspire all of us to just live more creative lives. And Phil don’t get upset. Phil is still here, still is not going away. He’s very much involved in all this, but the title of course of the new show is What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? And will be answering that question. What the hell am I talking about? Go ahead.

Phil Hudson:
I think the focus in our conversations were really about creativity because you’re a bit more than just a screener. When we started this, it was with a specific purpose. We should also point out this is episode 1 0 4, which is two years of doing podcast,

Michael Jamin:
So it was

Phil Hudson:
A good time to take a step back. Reassess. Things have shifted a lot in the industry. Things have shifted a lot for you personally. What you’ve done over the last few years is pretty phenomenal in terms of growing a following, becoming a bit of a celebrity, becoming a bit of an expert in a lot of news, which we’ll talk about. So yeah, it’s just a shift to I think, speaking a little bit more to who Michael Jamin is beyond just being a writer and a showrunner, but being a true creative.

Michael Jamin:
And I should mention, so Phil speaks with authority because he runs a digital marketing agency called Rook, SS e o. So this is, he knows what he’s talking, he knows the space Well, but without further ado, I guess this episode we were just going to talk a little bit more about how far the changes we’ve made, what we’ve seen in the past two years and hopefully maybe what we’re moving towards.

Phil Hudson:
Yeah, I thought it would be fitting, Michael, just to kind of talk about some statistics around what the success of the podcast, the success of your work as doing your own personal marketing. And I want to remind everybody that the whole point of this was so that you could market your book. So you’re taking and eating your own advice, and I think it’s very important for people to know, if I think of Michael Jainism, what are some of the things, your catchphrases and the things you say? Some of those are don’t wait, put it out there. Put yourself out there. Right.

Michael Jamin:
Stop asking for permission is what I say.

Phil Hudson:
Stop asking for permission.

Michael Jamin:
Yeah,

Phil Hudson:
There are a bunch of those that could be really good slogans for hats, which

Michael Jamin:
You

Phil Hudson:
Should

Michael Jamin:
Consider. A lot of this really, and I guess maybe it’s fitting that just that I am the first interview of what the new brand is because a lot of this is about reinventing yourself. This whole journey that I’ve been is about reinventing myself. I was a sitcom writer. That’s what I was until I started going online and making a podcast and posting every day and now I’m something else.

Phil Hudson:
Yeah, it’s definitely morphed. So let’s talk a bit about that. Right. So we’re 104 episodes into the podcast. That’s big. I think the statistic I saw a week ago is that the average podcast has six episodes, which means

Michael Jamin:
Most people It’s a lot of work. Yeah,

Phil Hudson:
It is. It’s a lot of money too. I don’t think people recognize that you’re investing in editors, you’ve

Michael Jamin:
Got

Phil Hudson:
People doing graphic design. There’s a lot of it. There’s the hosting of the site. I mean, every time you do a webinar, a site crashes and I have to freak out

Michael Jamin:
And

Phil Hudson:
Run in and make sure we’re back up. And yeah, it’s a whole thing. So there’s a lot that goes into this, but it’s 104 episodes on lots of different topics, all centered around creativity, largely around Hollywood and screenwriting. But I personally, as I’ve gone through and produced and helped edit some of the episodes, it’s very clear to me that you get a lot of joy from having these creative conversations.

Michael Jamin:
Yeah. That’s what interests me the most. Yeah, and

Phil Hudson:
It’s not so much about like, Hey, you’re a screenwriter. It’s like, hey, you are a creative person

Michael Jamin:
Who’s

Phil Hudson:
Putting themselves out there and trying to make something happen,

Michael Jamin:
And

Phil Hudson:
Your audience speaks to this as well. So in the digital marketing space, when we think about this, we think about an avatar and an avatar or a persona. It’s your ideal customer. It’s the person you’re going after. And anytime you’re doing marketing, it’s a mistake. Or if it’s folly, to not do that, you want to understand who you’re targeting. And it was very clear two years ago, well, I’m a writer, I’m a TV writer. Let’s talk about what I know, which is screenwriting to people who are screenwriters. And I pointed out you should do that because there’s a lot of BSS out there.

Michael Jamin:
And

Phil Hudson:
What is your take on that two years into this? What is your take on BSS advice and advice in general? Maybe through the lens of the questions you get asked,

Michael Jamin:
What is my take on it? I feel like you’re prompting me to say something. What are you getting at Fell? I don’t

Phil Hudson:
Know. I’m not trying to lead the witness. I just want to know what is your take on the marketplace for screenwriters having been immersed on the public, but then you’re getting all these questions from people. You did a bunch of live q and as for a year, just talking to people and your following, and there’s a series of 10 or 15 questions everybody’s asking,

Michael Jamin:
And

Phil Hudson:
It’s all pointed towards sell your stuff. You know what those are. So I’m just wondering for you as a showrunner who kind of stepped into the world of what’s being taught by the gurus and

Michael Jamin:
By the

Phil Hudson:
Experts, what are you seeing in the marketplace for screenwriters?

Michael Jamin:
One thing I said during the last webinar we did, we do free webinar every three weeks, and I said something that I think a lot of people were astounded by. I said, screenwriting is simple. It’s not easy, but it’s simple. And I think a lot of people are trying to sell you the complicated version so that you buy more from I’m the only one who can explain it to you and therefore you need me. And I don’t know in the writer’s room, that’s just not how we approach writing simple. I also think there’s a lot of bad advice out there, I think. So just be careful. Be careful who you’re taking advice from. I don’t know, it’s a little heartbreaking. Someone posted today, actually, I did a post and someone left a comment saying, everything this guy says me is true because he did coverage in a coverage service. He

Phil Hudson:
Goes, yeah,

Michael Jamin:
People use pay me for coverage. I didn’t know anything and I’m telling people what to do. This is a gig this guy picked up. It didn’t seem like a lot of people I know, not a lot of people, but I’ve heard stories of people who’ve done coverage for a temp job for a month or two and then left because they left feeling a little bit gross about themselves. Why are you paying me? I don’t know what I’m talking about. And so they left.

Phil Hudson:
Okay, so this is the world that, so I guess I might’ve been leading the witness a little bit because my point is, this is the world I understood because prior to meeting you and having the stars align, and we met years ago, and without me knowing who you are, and everybody knows the story by now of how we know each other and became friends, I was very much in that world and I was looking around trying to find that type of feedback and information, and you really shined the light on this for me. That man, there’s a lot of people out here pretending like they know what they’re talking about.

Michael Jamin:
And

Phil Hudson:
I think you’ve done a valuable service in these first 100 and 304 episodes of peeling back the curtain, explaining how the process works, educating people. So I just wanted to reiterate, there’s a lot of value in what you’ve done, and that doesn’t mean that you’re not going to continue to provide value to your listeners who are screenwriters. I think you’re just shifting into really none of it all, which is be a creative and do creative things because there’s value in the act, not because you’re trying to sell a pilot.

Michael Jamin:
Yeah, yeah, that’s exactly right. Yeah. I said something else that people kind of resonated with. Maybe it’s worth repeating, and I’ll probably say again in my webinars, I say do more of them, but I interviewed, I directed Brian Cranston many years ago on a show called Glen Martin. He was a guest star. It was an animated show, and I directed, it was silly. He played a fun role and was then afterwards I thanked him. We paid him probably 800 bucks. He wasn’t doing it for the money. And I thanked him that was scale. And he said, oh, no, no, thank you. And I’m like, thank me. Whatcha talking about you’re Brian Cranson. At the time he was doing breaking bed, and he said, it’s just nice to have a pallet cleanser. As great as Breaking Bad was in probably my favorite show of all time.
It was so dark that he was living with these negative emotions, anger, fear, jealousy, rage, all that stuff to be in the character. And when you are in that, your mind doesn’t know a difference When you’re playing this character 12, 14 hours a day in film and you’re acting angry and vengeful and all that, whatever those emotions he had to play, your brain doesn’t know the difference that whole day. You’ve been angry and vengeful, and then when you go home, how do you get it out of you? I mean, how do you just experienced all that all day? And it just really made me think about what it’s like to be an actor to actually live in that. So he was thanking me because the script that we did was so light and fun. He was like, oh, it’s like a, it was fun. It was fun.
Palette, cleanser, which he needed. And then it just got me thinking a lot about just creativity as a whole. And then when people write, when they write their scripts, novels, whatever it is, regardless of whether you sell it or not, you are enjoying that burst of creativity and you’re playing out all the characters in your head and your mind doesn’t know the difference between you pretending to jump out of a plane and you writing about jumping out of a plane. You’re trying to get it all on paper. You’re really trying to live it in your heart. And so that I feel Carries with you when you write, regardless of whether you sell it something is a bonus, great, you got money for it. But if you don’t sell it, you still get that. You still get that rush, that bonus. And so there’s no reason not to write, don’t think of it as the pot of gold is in the journey. It’s not at the end of the rainbow.

Phil Hudson:
Yeah. Let’s talk about some of the statistics of the podcast, and I love that. I want to circle back on that topic of the journey, the joys in the journey, not the destination, which I’m sure I’m slaughtering that saying just some things, right? So 104 episodes of the podcast, over 200,000 downloads of the podcast, people from I don’t know how many continents, but just basing it off of the last webinar we did this last Saturday. I counted probably 13 countries on about four continents, right? That’s a trip. Italy, you’ve got Europe, you’ve got people in Asia, Australia, south America, you got Central America, you’ve got America, you’ve

Michael Jamin:
Got

Phil Hudson:
Canada. I mean, you’ve got people, it’s a global reach at this point, and you’re kind of that figurehead to put that out.

Michael Jamin:
There’s so strange.

Phil Hudson:
Yeah. So hundreds of thousands of downloads on the podcast, which is incredible and that may not seem like a lot, but for the industry and for your niche,

Michael Jamin:
This

Phil Hudson:
Is really good. These are great numbers for that. We’ve pulled some stats, and you might know this a little bit better. At one point you were in the top three podcasts on screenwriting, is that right?

Michael Jamin:
Yeah, I was bouncing around and

Phil Hudson:
We fluctuated between 5, 6, 7, 10. Anybody who wants to help support go leave a review, a written review on iTunes, that does help a ton. But yeah, so major reach, major opportunity. When you started this, I wanted to ask, do you remember how many Instagram followers you had when we sat down in your garage and I talked about here’s what you need to do to be able to grow your following and do this. Do

Michael Jamin:
You remember how many? I don’t remember.

Phil Hudson:
No, because it wasn’t something you’re paying attention to. I didn’t know. But how many Instagram followers do you have now? It was less, would you say less than a thousand? Probably.

Michael Jamin:
Probably close to 160,000 now, I think. Yeah,

Phil Hudson:
Yeah, 160,000.

Michael Jamin:
How

Phil Hudson:
Many days have you missed posting on social

Michael Jamin:
Media? Since we started this two years

Phil Hudson:
Ago,

Michael Jamin:
I promised myself that I was going to post every day. So I post, I would say on average six days a week. So sometimes I take a day off.

Phil Hudson:
So for anybody looking to grow a following, again, Michael’s telling you to do this. He’s telling you to bring something to the table and you did this and it’s brutal. It’s not like a 32nd recording.

Michael Jamin:
I

Phil Hudson:
Mean, you communicated to me at one point you’re spending 20, 30 minutes on this every single day to get one video out because you’re doing multiple takes

Michael Jamin:
And you’re

Phil Hudson:
Trying to condense it. You’re thinking about it outside of that 30 minutes. You’re then doing the technical, and I don’t post this for you, you do this, you post it, right? Because you want it to feel authentic. So there’s work involved. But again, you’re eating your own medicine,

Michael Jamin:
You’re

Phil Hudson:
Doing what you tell people to do. You’re putting yourself out there in two years down the road, you basically nothing to 160,000 followers on

Michael Jamin:
Instagram. TikTok,

Phil Hudson:
Let’s hear it.

Michael Jamin:
Well, TikTok is, I think it’s something like 444,000. But that’s the thing. It’s like I made a promise for myself. It wasn’t too ambitious. I didn’t say I was going to post five times a day. I was like once a day,

Phil Hudson:
And I think I was advocating for two to four, which is what the experts would tell you to do. And you said, that’s not sustainable for me.

Michael Jamin:
No way.

Phil Hudson:
Especially for someone who doesn’t want to be in the limelight, which is you very much were like, I don’t want to be this person. I’m happy being a writer, but you have this project you want, which is your book

Michael Jamin:
You want. I also think it waters down a little bit the message if you’re constantly, I’d rather do quality than quantity. But yeah, all of it. I want to say Phil, everything that I, all the advice that I give people about becoming a screenwriter or whatever, becoming whatever it is you want to be a creator is either advice that I have done or I am currently doing.

Phil Hudson:
So there’s no hypocrisy here, which is a really key thing, really key takeaway that people can learn from you beyond the followers. Let’s talk about that’s led to definitely, and we saw this happening beforehand. You’d post a video about why aren’t there cats and TV shows? And Yahoo would pick it up, and then all of the riders on Tacoma FD would just give you crap for it. You popped up on their Yahoo page. But beyond that, and with your status and the work you put in, all of a sudden you become a trustworthy expert in your field because you have a following and you’re noticed. It’s not that your knowledge are on the subject or your capacity as a writer has changed.

Michael Jamin:
You’re

Phil Hudson:
The same capable person and now all of a sudden there’s a lot of interest in writing and Hollywood, and you’re the guy to go to because you have a following and you’re known, right? So this is this secondary effect of I want to get my work out there, so I need followers so that I can have an audience to engage with and potentially prove to people that there’s a demand for what I have to put out. And that turned into being covered on Deadline. The Hollywood Reporter, the New York Times variety, and you’re in deadline like 17 times, by the way.

Michael Jamin:
Yeah,

Phil Hudson:
Right.

Michael Jamin:
You’re

Phil Hudson:
In some local newspapers, Newburyport News, you were with the A R P

Michael Jamin:
C

Phil Hudson:
Tv. Yeah, the seasoned writers of the world, Portland TV had you on for three segments on one of their shows.

Michael Jamin:
And

Phil Hudson:
I think that started a little bit before Good Day Sacramento, multiple times in Yahoo N, our c nl, which is New Zealand, is that right? Nls New Zealand, I think. Yeah. Or the Netherlands. Yeah, Scripps News, the Guardian Newsweek, the Washington Posts News Junkie, right. Newsweek a couple times. And this last weekend you were on C N N.

Michael Jamin:
Yeah, it’s nuts. They just reach out to me, I’m like, sure, I’ll do it. Would not have predicted any of this was going to happen two years ago. No.

Phil Hudson:
So you’re not doing this for the fame, you’re not doing any of this because you feel like you’re going to get something out of it from your writing career. You’re doing it because your publisher says, Hey, we don’t care how many emails you have on your wife’s business list or anything like that, or how many people are interested in your writing?

Michael Jamin:
Which

Phil Hudson:
By the way, prior to even four years ago, 10,000 emails was enough to get a book deal. And now, I mean, I’ve seen that number of times from people now, it’s like, yeah, you need followers putting you on the spot here. So I apologize, but I recall you telling me that you had specific feedback from some of these agents, like, man, Michael Jamin can write, I want to be his friend. Do you remember some of that? Do you want to talk a little bit about what some of those rejection letters were? Oh,

Michael Jamin:
Yeah. I don’t know if I have in front of me, but basically it was, oh, actually I do. This

Phil Hudson:
Is not planned, by the way. Michael didn’t know I was going to bring any of this up. The whole premise here is I was going to interview Michael and talk about this stuff.

Michael Jamin:
Yeah, I got letters from when I was first putting my book out there from publishers. Oh, we love this book. The guy doesn’t have a following. They wrote to my agent, do you have anybody who writes like this? Who does have a following? I mean, it was that crazy. They said, platform drives acquisition. I said, what does that mean? You need to have a following. I said, well, what about the strength of the writing? Everyone loved the writing. What about the strength of the writing? Oh, no, no, no. It’s about what can we sell? I was like, damn. And that really was a stab in the heart,

Phil Hudson:
And I think for the average creative branching out with just writers, but the average creative one, rejection, litter, and it’s like, well, I guess that’s not in it. I guess mom was right. I guess dad was right. I guess Billy’s dad was, right. It’s hard to be a writer. I should give up. And you hear about these people who submit over and over and over again until they finally break through.

Michael Jamin:
And

Phil Hudson:
You took that and said, I don’t want to do this thing. I don’t want to be a public figure, but I have this creative work that I know people need to read. And it’s a personal work that you did on your own. No one paid you to do it. You wrote for

Michael Jamin:
Free.

Phil Hudson:
And then I

Michael Jamin:
Remember, which turn, go ahead. Go ahead.

Phil Hudson:
I was going to say, then I remember I get a text from you and you’re like, Phil, any chance you can come over, I want to talk to you about some marketing stuff. I come over, come to your garage. I break your chair. Let’s see that

Michael Jamin:
It had already broken. It’s already broken, but okay,

Phil Hudson:
Had to replace a chair. And he asked me, what do I need to do? And I just laid out everything I knew, and then we started putting the wheels into motion. That was roughly 25 months ago,

Michael Jamin:
Couple

Phil Hudson:
Months ago.

Michael Jamin:
And it’s one of those things like, I didn’t want to do it so tough. How badly do you want it? How badly do you want it? And there can be a downside to having whatever you want to call this level of fame. It’s internet famous, not famous, but you are putting yourself out there for haters, for trolls, for wackos, all sorts of weirdos. I mean, you wouldn’t believe how, I mean, do I have to tell you? There are people on the internet are crazy. So there was that, but I was like, well, this is what it takes now. So it actually made me matter. When the publishers told me this, I was furious. How dare you tell me what I can’t do? You don’t get to tell me what I can’t do. Only I get to do that. And so that just lit a fire under my ass. And then when I

Phil Hudson:
Read this book,

Michael Jamin:
Oh my God, it actually changed me. It’s kind of a weird,

Phil Hudson:
I don’t really want to plug the book

Michael Jamin:
Very, you can tell

Phil Hudson:
Me I’m

Michael Jamin:
Interested

Phil Hudson:
In this, but you can tell me. I’ll

Michael Jamin:
Tell you. It was a very new agey book. And so a lot of the advice was, some of the advice I thought was really good, and some of it was like, I don’t know. I think you, you’re going out on a limb with this one. But it was one of those things, you take what you want and you leave the rest. And what convinced me was this one passage where he said, you’ve already gotten what you wanted. It just hasn’t happened yet. And I was like, that’s it. That’s it. I already have it. It just hasn’t happened yet. And then I was like, alright, what do I need to do to make it happen?

Phil Hudson:
That’s it. Yeah. You remember you reading me that exact quote several times throughout this whole process? Yeah. I

Michael Jamin:
Love that quote. I always tell people on my podcast, whatever here, or I say it on the webinar, I was like, this is what you need to do. If you’re willing to do it, then you need a skill. We don’t know your level of skill and then you need a little bit of luck, of course. But here’s what you can do to increase your odds. Are you willing to do it? And most people aren’t so fine.

Phil Hudson:
Well, that’s my point about the podcast, right? The average podcast is six episodes,

Michael Jamin:
And

Phil Hudson:
It’s because the consistency, the lack of immediate gratification, the, oh, I only got three people to listen to my sixth episode and I put a thousand dollars to get four episodes

Michael Jamin:
Made, or

Phil Hudson:
Whatever it is, that’s enough to turn people off. But this is kind of your whole point is, okay, move on. And there’s nothing wrong with learning that you’re not fit for something. There’s something wrong with, there’s nothing wrong with saying, Hey, I understand that something I want to do. Maybe doing it the Hollywood way is not the right way for me.

Michael Jamin:
So

Phil Hudson:
Instead, I’m going to go back to just doing it on my own and I’m going to make short films and I’m going to support my local film community. And there’s nothing wrong with that. There’s nothing wrong with recognizing, Hey, I’ve got family obligations, so I’m not going to be able to move to New York and try to get my art in a gallery. So I’ll just paint on the weekends and I’ll just take that hour to myself every day to just put in the work on my craft. And you never know what can come from that. But the point is, it’s about sticking with what it is. And that’s, I think your message that I’ve heard. I don’t know that I want to say that it’s evolved. I don’t know it’s ever evolved. I think it’s always been your message, which is if you want to make it happen, you got to make it happen. But the act of doing is enough, right?

Michael Jamin:
As you

Phil Hudson:
Said, the goal, the pot of gold, that the rainbow is not the pot of gold.

Michael Jamin:
It’s the

Phil Hudson:
Experiences along the way, finding the pot of gold that are the pot of gold.

Michael Jamin:
But also, it’s like when you put energy into something legit energy, not like thinking or dreaming, but when you actually do the work, things have a way of manifesting like, oh, this opportunities have a way of appearing because you’ve put work into it. Like these various press opportunities that I’ve done and other things that have sprung out because of that. It’s like that’s just from doing the energy of posting on social media and just sharing as much knowledge as I can

Phil Hudson:
With zero expectation of getting back. You’re planting seeds that hopefully will produce fruit when your book is available and people can buy it on Audible and buy a paperback or a hardcover. And at this point too, so still, you’ve made the decision not to go with a traditional publisher, even though at this point you have hundreds of thousands of followers.

Michael Jamin:
Hey, it’s Michael Jamin. If you like my content, and I know you do because you’re listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people like you can unsubscribe whenever you want. I’m not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michaeljamin.com and now back to what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about?

Phil Hudson:
When you’d ask people, how many followers do I need? They couldn’t tell you, tell you. They just knew you needed followers, but they didn’t know what the number was.

Michael Jamin:
And then I got resentful, okay, now that I have these followers, why am I cutting you in? Tell me exactly why I’m cutting you in. What exactly do you do? Nothing. They get me in Barnes and Noble, that’s it. But people don’t buy books at Barnes and Noble. They buy it online. Why am I cutting you in? It made me mad. It made me legit in the beginning. I was like, I need you. And I was like, I don’t need you. What do I need you for?

Phil Hudson:
How freeing is that feeling?

Michael Jamin:
It’s wonderful. I just got my copy back from I, my copy editor, read the whole thing and whatever, looking for typos and stuff like that. And he loved it. This is a professional. He’s like, how do I share? I want to give this to my friends. I was like, oh, thank you. But one of it’s like, why am I cutting? It’s just like this is the year, it’s 2023. It’s like, you don’t need to ask for permission from these people. The publishing is, the side of the business is very similar to Hollywood in the sense that what do we need these people for? You don’t need Hollywood if you want to do, you don’t. You just don’t. You can do it yourself.

Phil Hudson:
On that note, I went to Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu today, and it was a smaller class, middle of the day. There were literally two other people besides me. They’re both instructors. It was paying for a private, which was awesome. And in some downtime, I was talking to one of the guys, he’s like, yeah, I quit doing Juujitsu for five years. And I was like, oh, why’d you stop? And he’s like, well, a couple of years ago, I lost everything I was doing, worked in, I’m an actor and I worked in the industry. And then that started a conversation, and then he started telling me about all the stuff he’s doing now. And he’s like, we just decided to do it ourselves. We’re making short films. We’re putting it out there. We’re winning tons of awards on this festival circuits. And he’s been in Netflix shows, he’s been in things. He has an I M D V page, so he’s not just some guy. He has talent and skill, and he’s even going out and put it in. And I was like, dude, good for you.

Michael Jamin:
Yeah. But when you look at the people who break, the people who are break in today, they’re all doing what I’m doing. They’re people, for the most part, they’re not begging for work. They’re making work for themselves, and they’re making a name for themselves. And so they’re building equity in their own name as opposed to knocking on doors and begging.

Phil Hudson:
Yeah, I, we’ve touched on this in a past podcast, but I’ve heard an agent refer to it as Plus writer plus. What is the plus you’re bringing to the table? So maybe it’s a following, maybe it’s ip. Maybe you wrote a book that’s a Amazon bestseller. Maybe it’s you worked at the Onion and you’re coming in with some clout because you had that experience, right? Maybe you were brought on the Harvard Lampoon, whatever it is, there’s a plus and a following is a plus, but that’s the value add. It’s not enough. And you’ve told me this before, and I’ve quoted it often, and I think about it when I write, and this was, man, this was like 7, 6, 7 years ago.

Michael Jamin:
You

Phil Hudson:
Read something I wrote in film school, and it was a speck of a Mr. Robot. And you said, Phil, it’s obvious you’re a competent writer, and this is really good. But that’s the problem. It’s not great. And so it’s not enough to be good. You have to be great, but you also need something else. And you have to be willing to put that out there and get that work done. To me, I’ve been very hesitant to grow following because of the public nature of that and some of those things. And you tell me some of the things you have to deal with in your dms and people saying things, anti-Semitic things, all kinds. It’s crazy, horrible things.

Michael Jamin:
And

Phil Hudson:
You still stick it out and you do it. But yeah, the plus for me might be my skillset and technology. It might be my ability to run social media pro campaigns to the point where searchlights and this formerly Fox Searchlight, but searchlights people when they meet me are like, man, I need to fill in every project we have. And that’s just the hustle and the grind. And you all have that. You listening to this have,

Michael Jamin:
That’s exactly right. And Phil, this is what I was going to say as well, is everyone listening to this? Take inventory of what you have. For you, Phil, it’s your vast knowledge of digital marketing, but for other people, they have other skills. So take advantage of what you have and then incorporate that towards building your brand or whoever you

Phil Hudson:
Are. Yeah, we might have talked, go ahead.

Michael Jamin:
Well, if you’re a truck driver and you’re like, what do I got? I drive a long distance truck, dude, you got a lot. Because you have, I dunno, whatever, 10 hours on the road where you’re with nothing but your thoughts, turn off the radio. Not a lot of jobs like that where you can actually think and do your job at the same time. Think about something else. And so, yeah, you could write your screenplay, take notes into a recorder, and then when you stop the car later or the truck later, type it up a little bit and make notes. But that’s a huge asset you have, which is you have time. You actually have time where you can think and concentrate on something while you do your job. That’s a huge

Phil Hudson:
Asset. It’s a blue sky time. Blue sky time is hard. It’s the space and the stillness that is hard to generate in a chaotic life with family and obligations and work. So if you can find it, and reiterating one of the most powerful notes you’ve given me, which is, do you listen to audio books or podcasts in the car? And I said, yeah. And you said, don’t,

Michael Jamin:
Don’t, don’t listen to me either. I turned it off your story. Think

Phil Hudson:
About your, yeah, write your

Michael Jamin:
Story. What

Phil Hudson:
Is the problem? I’m trying to solve a huge breakthrough for me in my ability to spend time. I was so busy packing my day with so many obligations,

Michael Jamin:
But then I was

Phil Hudson:
Spending hours in LA traffic doing runs for the show,

Michael Jamin:
And

Phil Hudson:
It’s like, oh, here’s the space.

Michael Jamin:
So it’s

Phil Hudson:
A great note, but everyone has that note. And going back to something you said earlier, luck is not, you talked about everyone needs a little bit of luck, but that definition, and I think I shared this in episode three, luck is where opportunity meets preparation.

Michael Jamin:
Yeah, yeah’s

Phil Hudson:
The preparation. It’s the time spent. It’s the other adage, when’s the best time to grow a tree 20 years ago,

Michael Jamin:
When’s

Phil Hudson:
The second best time? Right now,

Michael Jamin:
You

Phil Hudson:
Don’t have a tree, so get out and build a tree. Grow your tree, right?

Michael Jamin:
Yeah.

Phil Hudson:
So yeah, man, kudos to you for putting in the work and the effort. And I’m close enough as your friend, I’ve been able to see this and see your growth and your push to be able to do this. And I’ll also say that even as someone that I considered to be competent, functional adults who’s very successful, I’ve noticed your resilience increased quite a bit over

Michael Jamin:
My resilience.

Phil Hudson:
And that’s not saying that you were some pushover or anything. I’m not suggesting that in the slightest, but I’ve just noticed that your ability to just take the bumps and the bruises of all of the BSS you’re dealing with, it’s just made you, I think, a little more focused and clear on what you want out of it. And that’s why you have this reaction, this is my interpretation to me, why you’re having this reaction to the publishers now. It’s like, why am I giving you any of this? You didn’t fight the fight. I fought the fight. I’ve been here. I’ve been in here day in and day out, so screw you. And that’s a level of resiliency and confidence. I think that I’m not saying you didn’t have that, just

Michael Jamin:
It took a lot for me to get there. It changes things. It took a lot for me to get there, but it was like maybe on the second book, maybe I’ll do with them or not, I don’t know. But I also know they haven’t earned my book. And I’ve also heard too many stories from friends of mine who have had books traditionally published where the marketing department drops the ball and they promise one thing and then they’re awol, and then that’s it. Because at that point, you don’t have the margin to do any more marketing on your own, so it’s dead. And so it was never about the money for me, but I became a little angry as I was building this up. I was like, well, why am I cutting you in? It doesn’t make sense to me. What do you bring to the table? Nothing other than Barnes and Noble, which I don’t really care about. It’s like, okay, sure. If it was 1982, I might worry about that. Yeah.

Phil Hudson:
This is, I think clicking for me. You’re familiar with David Goggins, the former Navy Seal?

Michael Jamin:
I don’t think so.

Phil Hudson:
He wrote a book called You Can’t Hurt Me.

Michael Jamin:
And he

Phil Hudson:
Talks about how he was just abused as a kid by his father.

Michael Jamin:
And

Phil Hudson:
Then what that taught him to do was to be able to just separate his pain. And it created a lot of mental toughness to the point that he was in the us. He was in the Air Force, tried out for Air Force Special Operations. He became a Navy Seal. He went through three hell weeks because he kept getting rolled back for injuries. He had a point where he had fractured legs and he would duct tape them so that they weren’t hurt when he was doing runs. I mean, he ran a hundred miler in one day with no preparation to the point that his kidneys were failing. And he just does ultra marathons nonstop. He’s just kind of this figure. He’s become a bit of a meme with the same younger people, but I’ve known about him for a few years, and he talks about his book and he’s like, I got offered $300,000 from a publisher from my book,

Michael Jamin:
And

Phil Hudson:
I just thought, you haven’t been through what I’ve been through. It is basically what you’re saying. It’s like, you haven’t earned this the way I have. Is my life worth $300,000? And he said, no. So he took all of his savings, which was about 300,000, and he self-published his own book, New York Times bestseller. Did the hardbacks, did the whole thing.

Michael Jamin:
Why didn’t it take him 300,000 to make a book? It shouldn’t have taken fraction of that.

Phil Hudson:
He did all of the publishing himself. So he didn’t publish through a self-publisher like Amazon. He didn’t even want to partner with Amazon, so he became his own publisher.

Michael Jamin:
So

Phil Hudson:
He literally printed up hundreds of thousands of copies, and then he leveraged all of his relationships with the Rogans and all these people with these platforms because of the life and the experience that he had, and multiple time bestsellers, millions of copies, sold books,

Michael Jamin:
Two

Phil Hudson:
Books, and he’s a millionaire because of that effort. So it’s that same resilience mindset I think that I’m hearing from you. And that’s probably why I made that connection

Michael Jamin:
Just like, screw people. I’ll do it myself. I don’t need you. That’s how I feel. Whatever, I’ll do it myself. Yeah.

Phil Hudson:
That’s awesome. Before we talk about the new podcast, I just wanted to see, are there any takeaways for you over the last year? Are there anything that really stood out moments or conversations we’ve had with you, with other people, us on the podcast or with other students in your course?

Michael Jamin:
If you listen to some of those other episodes where I’m interviewing people, you’ll hear various versions of the same story that I tell their own, which is kind of like, screw it. I’ll just do it my own. It is just people. The reason why people are, I interview, I guess, successful people, and the reason why they’re successful is because they haven’t quit yet. That’s it. They just didn’t get around to quitting. And so I think that’s what it is. Until you quit, you’re just a success. That hasn’t happened yet. It just hasn’t happened yet,

Phil Hudson:
Which is why you don’t quit.

Michael Jamin:
Yeah.

Phil Hudson:
Anything else stand out to you?

Michael Jamin:
I don’t know. Can you think of something?

Phil Hudson:
The one lingering thought that I have is I think that people, you set a really good example for people on your social media about how to handle naysayers

Michael Jamin:
Because

Phil Hudson:
You get a lot of negativity, and you talked about this, you could go after them. You’re a professional comedy

Michael Jamin:
Writer. Yeah.

Phil Hudson:
They don’t stand a chance. And I have witnessed just the witty quickness, the decimation of a soul in a writer’s room, all in love,

Michael Jamin:
But

Phil Hudson:
The capability of a professional comedy writer to just tear someone down. And it’s almost like with great power comes great responsibility. That

Michael Jamin:
Cliche

Phil Hudson:
From Spider-Man, it’s like you opt to take the high road, which is,

Michael Jamin:
And I’m always torn by that. Sometimes I’m like, I can easily take you down. And sometimes I do. If it’s warranted, if they come out with me a certain amount of energy, then I can match the energy. But I’m torn. I also feel like, well, it’s not enough that I, on one hand, I tell people I’m a comedy writer, but unless I show it every once in a while, people are, how are they going to believe me?

Phil Hudson:
And so

Michael Jamin:
It’s a line that I dance. I dance, it is like I don’t want to be mean, but I also,

Phil Hudson:
It’s not negative energy. It’s not done with maliciousness. It’s done playfully. But I think it just, you stand up for yourself when it’s appropriate.

Michael Jamin:
And

Phil Hudson:
Again, that speaks to some of that resiliency that again, you could decimate ’em,

Michael Jamin:
You retrain yourself. I’m totally pulling punches, believe me when I’m pulling, because sometimes I’ve got a bunch of clips I haven’t posted yet. I write them. I’ll spend a half hour on ’em, and then I’ll sit on it. I don’t feel, and then I look at the next day, I go, oh, I can’t put that on. It’s funny, but it’s just too mean. That’s

Phil Hudson:
The adage of when you’re at work and you want to send that email, don’t send

Michael Jamin:
It.

Phil Hudson:
Write it out. Don’t

Michael Jamin:
Send it. Get

Phil Hudson:
It out of your system. Move on.

Michael Jamin:
Right. I took a guy apart the other day, I just haven’t shared it, so screw it. That guy,

Phil Hudson:
You don’t even share those with me.

Michael Jamin:
Yeah. But also I also do, and I made a post about this. It was like, how do I want to show up every day? How do I want to be seen? And I don’t want be the mean guy. I don’t want to be a bully. So I’m allowed to think my negative thoughts. I don’t always have to share them.

Phil Hudson:
Yeah, yeah. No, and that’s a valuable lesson for people in a world where, as I’ve often said, you remove the opportunity to get punched in the face for anything you say or do, and all of a sudden people start speaking up a little bit more than they probably should. And I’m not advocating for violence,

Michael Jamin:
But

Phil Hudson:
Even a verbal punch to the face can often be enough. And

Michael Jamin:
It’s

Phil Hudson:
Pretty easy in our society to just sit behind your keyboard

Michael Jamin:
And

Phil Hudson:
Zero consequences for what you say and do. I call this out? I call this out in our webinars while you’re talking, Cynthia, your wife is doing a great job of just getting questions, and I’m just kind of checking the chat to see what people are talking about. And man, there’s some trolls rolling into your webinar too.

Michael Jamin:
Thank you. I never see them. Do you block ’em? What do you do?

Phil Hudson:
No, no. People take care. They take care of it. And we can talk about another experience we had where someone went after me on a podcast too, nepotism, do you remember that? Called me out for nepotism

Michael Jamin:
And

Phil Hudson:
All that.

Michael Jamin:
And

Phil Hudson:
Yeah, your listeners had my back and they went after ’em. And it is just a very stark difference between the community you’ve cultivated of people who are just respectful, sincere creatives looking to break in and chase their dreams and all the people who say they want to do it and are not putting in the

Michael Jamin:
Work and the nepotism on your part, to be clear, I suppose that was when you were in and out of foster care as a child. Is that when you experienced all the nepotism?

Phil Hudson:
Yeah, it might’ve been that. It might’ve been when I was in the group homes. It could have been when I lived in my aunt and uncle’s house and I couldn’t do sports because I had to work

Michael Jamin:
Effectively

Phil Hudson:
Full-time in high school. Could have been any of those times. Could have been

Michael Jamin:
Of those times. Yeah.

Phil Hudson:
But your point to that was you knew one person tangentially through some girl when you moved here, there wasn’t even an nepotism for you. And I knew you, and yeah, I’ve been blessed to have that opportunity, but we’ve seen enough people come and go, you have to earn it. Right?

Michael Jamin:
It’s so funny when I tell that story. When I moved to Hollywood, I knew no one in Hollywood, but a girl I was friendly with in high school, she was a year younger than me. I found out that her brother was living in Hollywood and was trying to do what I did, which is bright sitcom writer. And so I called him

Phil Hudson:
Up, and then

Michael Jamin:
We wound up becoming roommates. But then when I tell that story, people go, oh, so you did know someone. It was like, I knew some guy.

Phil Hudson:
He was

Michael Jamin:
Just as unsuccessful

Phil Hudson:
As

Michael Jamin:
Me, and we

Phil Hudson:
Became

Michael Jamin:
Roommates. He was just a couple years older than me. So I guess that’s how I knew someone.

Phil Hudson:
But that highlights this thing. I was going to say, and it’s just a quote that stuck with me for years. I think it comes from Jim Rowan, which is there’s two ways to have the tallest building. One is to build the tallest building,

Michael Jamin:
Which

Phil Hudson:
You have done the other ways to tear everyone else’s building down.

Michael Jamin:
And

Phil Hudson:
So if you’re afraid to pursue your craft, sometimes tearing everyone else down is a bit easier than facing the empty page or the blank canvas. It’s

Michael Jamin:
A lot easier. It’s a lot easier.

Phil Hudson:
And the high road, which

Michael Jamin:
You’ve

Phil Hudson:
Been an example for

Michael Jamin:
An

Phil Hudson:
Exemplar, is just put your head down, do the work, provide value,

Michael Jamin:
And

Phil Hudson:
Then the benefits will come eventually.

Michael Jamin:
And I really hope this episode doesn’t seem like we’re just patting me on the back. I hope it serves be to get you guys to do what I’m doing in your own way for whatever you want to do.

Phil Hudson:
And Michael saying that, because Michael didn’t know what I was going to talk about or bring up here, this is me bringing this up because these are the things that I’ve observed as your friend, as a co-host on the podcast, but also just as someone who’s just trying to do the same thing that everybody who listens to your podcast is trying

Michael Jamin:
To do,

Phil Hudson:
Which is break in and chase their dreams.

Michael Jamin:
Yeah, I’m exactly like you guys. Only, I’m doing it for writing. That’s all for publishing,

Phil Hudson:
Which speaks to the transition to the podcast, which is the title of the podcast. What the hell is Michael? What

Michael Jamin:
The hell is Michael Jamin talking about?

Phil Hudson:
Yeah. What the hell is Michael Jamin talking about? At this point, you can see the cover has changed, so it’s going to be the same feed. You don’t need to go resubscribe. None of the old episodes are rebranding. They’ll still be live and available the way they were. But it’s just a shift into talking about creative things. And I think you got some cool stuff to kind of display. I guess people might’ve already heard the intro.

Michael Jamin:
Oh, we could do that. We

Phil Hudson:
Put on this episode. But you want to talk more about that, the podcast and impetus for the change and why we were here?

Michael Jamin:
Yeah. Well, there was that. The new music is by my friend Anthony Rizzo, who did all the music. He was the composer on Marin. It wasn’t my friend. Then. I just met him on Marin. And then he also did the music for my book, a paper orchestra, which would be dropping hopefully this winter and keep pushing it

Phil Hudson:
Back. Yeah, we haven’t talked about that. You’ve put in a ton of energy and effort into recording the audio book and making it your live events, which I wanted to point out part of this transition, and you’ve always talked about how when you’re in a writer’s room, you end up acting out the parts, like when you’re doing Hank on King of the Hill, you do Hank’s voice and you kind of mimic him. You’re doing Bobby, you do it. So you’ve always been a performer, but I don’t know if you’ve been a performer in the sense that you are with a paper orchestra where

Michael Jamin:
It’s

Phil Hudson:
A stage show and you’re there and you’re being vulnerable and emotional, and you’re making it a thing, and you’re practicing and you’re working with talented coaches like your wife, Cynthia, who is a very talented

Michael Jamin:
Actress,

Phil Hudson:
And Jill Sch, who is a legendary actress, and you’re investing in all this coaching to put on a presentation or performance for people. And I have not heard audio book, but what I understand is it’s going to be very similar experience to come into a live show.

Michael Jamin:
I think so. And it’ll be a little more intimate than a live show in your ear because it’s an audio book. I’m much closer to your brain, and I want to talk to more

Phil Hudson:
Creators

Michael Jamin:
Like this. But what I’m personally inspired by right now, and that maybe it’ll change in five years, but I’m inspired by people who tell and perform their own stories. To me, there’s something, so you’re an actor. You have to be a writer and a performer at the same time, as opposed to doing something like creating something. That’s fine. But when you’re telling your own story, it’s like, man, you’re really putting yourself out there. And I think when I see people do it, I’m like, all right, that’s interesting. Maybe I’ll change in five years. So I mean, standups do that, but they don’t do it. They’re going for the laugh usually. They’re not usually going deeper than that, which is fine that when you go into a comedy club, that’s what you expect. So that’s kind of what I’ve been exploring and being motivated by.

Phil Hudson:
That’s another Michael Jainism that stood out to me. I wrote it down when you were talking earlier, go there. You have to be willing to go there. And we talked about people who are not willing to go there. And we’ve heard people, other writers say, I’m not willing to go there. And you’ve called it out privately to me, did you hear that person? Did you hear what they said? And you have to be willing to go there. For a long time, I wasn’t. And through your help, I’ve been able to do that. But yeah, you’re talking to people who go there.

Michael Jamin:
Yeah, that’s the job. If you don’t want the job, find another job. It’s

Phil Hudson:
Emotional vulnerability

Michael Jamin:
And

Phil Hudson:
Being willing to put yourself out there and not just on a social media perspective, but truly emotionally vulnerable in your stories and what you’ve called mining your life for stories and putting that out there.

Michael Jamin:
Yeah. Yeah. To me, that’s the exciting stuff. And I didn’t invent this, so it’s just when I see others do it, I’m like, wow, why I should be doing that too.

Phil Hudson:
So obviously I’m not necessarily a co-host of this anymore. I’m still helping produce the thing. We’re still making sure that that’s

Michael Jamin:
How hear a lot the technical

Phil Hudson:
Side. I’ll still be popping in on podcast episode.

Michael Jamin:
We’ll still be talking about screenwriting, I’m sure.

Phil Hudson:
And I had this cool experience, and I don’t think we’ve talked about this when I was on touring with the broken lizard guys doing their social media, just sitting there talking to them and seeing this rabid fan base of people who just love them from this thing that they created. When they did it, they put themselves out there.

Michael Jamin:
And

Phil Hudson:
It really lit that our tour spirit I had back in 2000 8 0 9, when I was really dedicating myself to screenwriting. And I have actually been working on a feature that I would like to star in and direct and do that whole thing on the indie level. Just now you talking, just an exercise. What about

Michael Jamin:
As a short first, why not doing it as a short

Phil Hudson:
Could definitely do that. Yeah. Why?

Michael Jamin:
To

Phil Hudson:
Me, there’s a feature in there for sure that I want to write and just get out of me, but definitely worth doing a short, yeah,

Michael Jamin:
Go watch as we talk about this. Go watch on Vimeo, I think Thunder Road, that scene we talk about, go watch the church, the Churching. That was a feature, but that scene stands on its own. If you just saw that scene, you would’ve thought, oh, it’s a short, I thought it was a short, I thought it was a great short, I didn’t realize it was part of a bigger, so do something like that. And then when people see that and they’re blown away, you’ll say, oh, well, there’s more to come. Just I need you to donate $5,000. And then they pay for the rest.

Phil Hudson:
Yeah. Yeah. That’s great advice. Great advice. So yeah. So anyway, this beautiful shift in the tide of creativity and your shift, and that rubs off. What can we expect from the podcast in terms of guests you’re interviewing? What does that look like for you?

Michael Jamin:
I reach out, I got to continue to do more. I’m doing another one tomorrow. I’ll be reaching out. These guys really inspired me. So there’s a movie that I saw on Netflix many years ago, I dunno, maybe five years ago from these guys called The Minimalists. So I reached out to one of them. He’s going to be on the Tomorrow, and they’re fascinating. It is.

Phil Hudson:
Joshua Fields Millburn, and

Michael Jamin:
He’s the one coming on, and he’s gracious enough to come on, and I’m sure he’s going to think we’re going to talk about the message. And the message is very important. The message is how you can live, how you can have more in your life with less how you don’t need to buy this, how you’ll be happier if you get rid of that, and great message. But he’s in for a surprise because we’ll talk about that. But I really want to talk about how he created himself, how he, okay, then how did you sell a show on Netflix? Okay, now what is it like to be this person? Because he wasn’t, he was just some guy who’s middle management before he did this, and now he’s the guy who has this message. Even though the message has already been said before by other people, he still put a different spin on it to me. And I find that inspiring, that somebody who invented himself, what does that feel like? What are the insecurities that come with that? What is this new fame ish thing that he has? How does that feel? How does he continue to push himself? I don’t know. I’m looking forward to the interview. I’m curious to hear, and I bet you he hasn’t spoken about that.

Phil Hudson:
That’s awesome.

Michael Jamin:
I did an interview, I dunno if it, no, it hasn’t aired yet. The guy I follow, a prop master that I follow on TikTok named Scott and Scott Reeder, and he’s great.

Phil Hudson:
Great. I follow him too.

Michael Jamin:
He’s great. He just talks about all the props and how he makes these props, and we spoke a little bit about that, but we were more talking about how he invented himself now. And halfway through the interview, he says to me, this is the best interview anyone’s ever done, because I didn’t really care about the boring stuff. I want to know how he invented himself. What all of us, I think are trying to do right now. That’s part of Before we Die, we, that’s, who else can we be before we die?

Phil Hudson:
Yeah, that’s profound, man. I’m excited. I’ve loved listening to the interviews you’ve already done on Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I’m looking forward to those.

Michael Jamin:
It’s

Phil Hudson:
Good stuff, man. I’m just really pumped for this new stage. And again, I do think it just speaks a little bit more to who you’ve become because not that you’ve outgrown yourself as a writer, it’s just you’ve evolved a bit as a person into being a bit more than that. And I hesitate to even say that too, because I know this is who you are. This is who you have been.

Michael Jamin:
But this is what writers too, I think it’s like, all right, what else can we explore here? That’s part of the fun. That’s the fun part being, being a writer is that you get car, right? You get carte blanche to try new things because maybe I can write about this worst case scenario. I can make a story from it.

Phil Hudson:
I was about to say, that’s advice you’ve given me multiple times, which is it’s a write-off. You can go take a

Michael Jamin:
Basket weaving class,

Phil Hudson:
Right? Go take a

Michael Jamin:
Dance class. Why?

Phil Hudson:
It’s an experience. Go take an acting class. And I remember you did a workshop in Acting for Life and it was a comedy workshop and you were kind enough to invite me to attend that. And I was already studying with Cynthia and Jill at the time there. And yeah, I remember you just putting out that same thing. It’s great. You’re studying acting, it’s going to make you a better writer.

Michael Jamin:
And you’ve

Phil Hudson:
Given that advice on the podcast too. So it’s really fascinating to me. And I’m just kind of realizing this in this moment, man, I thought I was getting all this great free advice that was particular to Phil Hudson and now you’re just

Michael Jamin:
Giving it to

Phil Hudson:
Everybody, man.

Michael Jamin:
Everyone. I hope so. I’d like to try to do, we’ll see if I can make that happen where I go to, that’s something I’m going to try to make happen where I can tour to different cities, put on a show, and then the next day maybe a writing seminar afterwards in that city so I can to help offset some of my costs. And then we could just talk about writing that day. We have a little writing workshop or something, so maybe I’ll try to do that.

Phil Hudson:
God, that’s awesome. It’s the first I’ve heard of that. That sounds like a great,

Michael Jamin:
Yeah, it’s just so many things that have to happen before that. I got so much on my plate right now. I can’t even think about that. But we were talking about that. Wouldn’t that be interesting?

Phil Hudson:
It’s a great idea. Well, I imagine Cynthia will be with you.

Michael Jamin:
Yeah, yeah,

Phil Hudson:
Yeah. And that’s awesome. Now you’re getting someone who’s been on Seinfeld and the friends and just all

Michael Jamin:
These

Phil Hudson:
Great, I mean very talented, very, and I will say not only talented, but very perceptive,

Michael Jamin:
Right? Oh yeah.

Phil Hudson:
And I think I’ve shared this on here too, but there was this moment where I just couldn’t get there. I just couldn’t get there. And Jill’s just saying, what are you feeling? And I

Michael Jamin:
Was like, I don’t know.

Phil Hudson:
And she turns to the class and she’s like, what is everyone? What’s he feeling? Everyone’s like, he’s mad. And I didn’t even realize I was mad. And then the next class, I’m struggling in this scene. And then Jill’s like, what are you struggling with? What’s going on? I was like, I don’t know. And then Cynthia’s like, is it the intimacy? Is he having trouble with the intimacy of the scene? And I was like, holy shit. Yeah. I think that’s what it is. I am not willing to go here. And I had to work through all that stuff. So she’s just so perceptive and so kind. You can’t even be not mad. She’s calling you out because it’s done with so much love and compassion. It’s a beautiful thing.

Michael Jamin:
We’ve had these moments, by the way, when she directs me from my audio book where the outtakes are not pretty, the outtakes are me yelling.

Phil Hudson:
But

Michael Jamin:
It’s funny, one of the

Phil Hudson:
Stories in my book

Michael Jamin:
Is called The House on Witherspoon Street where I’m a kid in college. They’re all true stories. And it builds to me giving an on-air interview to this woman who’s this eccentric woman who had a talk show. She was lovely, but she’s larger than life and it’s in the book. And then my editor said yesterday, he goes,

Phil Hudson:
Do you

Michael Jamin:
Happen to have that interview? And I was like, well, actually, I think I do. And I found the cassette from 30 years ago. And so we’ll put it in the bonus section of the book where now you can hear me, you can hear me as a 19 year old or whatever it was. Has that scene unfolded? That’s like

Phil Hudson:
Steve LE’s break dancing

Michael Jamin:
Commercial, but it’s stranger than that because you’ll know now what I was thinking in my head

Phil Hudson:
While That’s awesome.

Michael Jamin:
While it was going on. That’s a

Phil Hudson:
Great point.

Michael Jamin:
Yeah, it’s a fun little thing.

Phil Hudson:
It’s cool stuff, man. I love it. I’m pumped. It’s a good shift for you. I think it’s a good shift for your audience. I think it opens it up a little bit. Hope it’s a little bit more accessible to your audience. Your audience is far more than just writers. It’s

Michael Jamin:
Great. I don’t want to just, when it called screenwriters, you hear this. Well, does that mean I don’t want to be a screenwriter? Well, okay, but do you want to do anything creative? Yeah, sure I do. I want to write a poem. Okay, good. Now listen, you can, the

Phil Hudson:
Other thing is how does this apply to novel writing? How does this apply to playwriting? And we have a testimonial video from a guy who does financial writing, and he took your course and he’s like, it made my financial writing better.

Michael Jamin:
He’s

Phil Hudson:
Able to tell a better story about

Michael Jamin:
Finances in a finance journal. And stories are what gets people hooked. Whatever you want to sell, sell it with a story. People are interested in hearing a story very

Phil Hudson:
Often. That’s you,

Michael Jamin:
Right?

Phil Hudson:
It’s you in the room, it’s you idea, it’s your

Michael Jamin:
Acting,

Phil Hudson:
It’s your

Michael Jamin:
Art.

Phil Hudson:
All of that is story.

Michael Jamin:
By the way, I hope to do some more public speaking. So if anyone has a,

Phil Hudson:
It works at a corporation

Michael Jamin:
And you want me to do public speaking, we have a number of talks,

Phil Hudson:
Keynotes. We can talk about that, Michael. I do a lot of that with some clients.

Michael Jamin:
Oh really? Oh good. We’ll talk about that. Keynote

Phil Hudson:
Marketing. Yeah. Well, good stuff. Anything you want to add? I mean, we had talked, I think, a little bit about potentially putting the music on. I think everybody’s already heard the music on. We’ve heard some of it. It’s

Michael Jamin:
Funky. Do you

Phil Hudson:
Want to play it? It’s a

Michael Jamin:
Funky, let’s play some of it. Okay,

Phil Hudson:
Let’s do it. So you’re going to share it with me, and then we’ll have Dallas cut in the actual track. Dallas is our editor. We’ll have him put in the track so that you can hear it raw, not through Zoom.

Michael Jamin:
Here’s my

Phil Hudson:
Theme song as composed

Michael Jamin:
By Anthony Rizzo, who’s the composer from Marin, who he also did the score for my audiobook. Yeah,

Phil Hudson:
It was just

Michael Jamin:
Fun. And I dunno, it kind of puts a smile

Phil Hudson:
On my face. Makes me want to hear more. This is a random thought, I don’t know have thought about in a long time, but I was driving to Utah one time and I stopped at a gas station in Nevada and there was a song playing and it was that song Everybody walked the Dinosaur.

Michael Jamin:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was not was I had that album.

Phil Hudson:
Do you remember this? I put it on my social media and you commented and talked about that song.

Michael Jamin:
No, I don’t. But no one’s ever heard of was, not was, but Don was the guy who wrote it.

Phil Hudson:
Yeah, that song was on a gas station pump. And I posted it and I was like, what a jam. You were like, yeah, I know who that is. You talked about

Michael Jamin:
Was not, was

Phil Hudson:
Got that same vibe. It’s good. Good stuff.

Michael Jamin:
Yeah. Alright, well, is that it, Phil? Are we done? Did we hit it?

Phil Hudson:
I think so. I mean,

Michael Jamin:
Yeah,

Phil Hudson:
Just reiterating to people, you’re still providing free screenwriting advice, free writing advice and creative advice through your newsletter, the watch list. You can go to michaeljamin.com/newsletter to access that or iwatchlist your upcoming shows You’ll tour. Your tour will be coming up at some

Michael Jamin:
Point. Go to michaeljamin.com/upcoming. And a lot of this, by the way, I have to thank just the people who, my listeners, people who comment and follow me on social media, like, wow, I’m not even a writer, but all this applies to what I could do at work. I was like, oh, I didn’t know that. Well, thank you. I’m glad it does for you. So that kind of feedback helps me. Yeah,

Phil Hudson:
Well, awesome stuff. We’re not getting rid of the screenwriting course, we’re not getting rid of any of that stuff that’s still there @michael jamin.com. Go sign up, free post on

Michael Jamin:
Social for free, free webinar michaeljamin.com/webinar. We got a new one. Yeah, we’re

Phil Hudson:
Always

Michael Jamin:
Changing things up, so come see

Phil Hudson:
Us there.

Michael Jamin:
Phil’s there as well.

Phil Hudson:
I am there messing stuff up on the technical

Michael Jamin:
Side, so thank

Phil Hudson:
You’re subscribe. It’s my fault there’s a lot of any technical issues, just blame ’em on me.

Michael Jamin:
But we’re working through ’em. Well, Michael,

Phil Hudson:
It has been a pleasure to do this podcast with you for two years. Man, I can’t believe that just went by. I’ve had two

Michael Jamin:
Kid and a half. Phil, thank you for all your help doing this and your support. So yeah, I mean this is, you’ve been incredibly helpful,

Phil Hudson:
My honor, man. And looking forward to this next stage of

Michael Jamin:
Your

Phil Hudson:
Journey here too. It was great.

Michael Jamin:
Yeah. Alright buddy. Alright everyone, thank you again for listening. Start Funking out. Let’s hit that funky beat.

Phil Hudson:
Is that the new outro? Not stop, keep

Michael Jamin:
Riding. Yeah, it’ll be what?

Phil Hudson:
Funk out. Keep that funky funk out. Get the funk

Michael Jamin:
Out. Get the funk out. Alright, everyone, get the funk out. All right, thanks so much. See you. So now we all know what the hell Michael Jamin is talking about. If you’re interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for my free monthly webinars@michaeljamin.com/webinar. And if you found this podcast helpful or entertaining, please share it with a friend and consider leaving us a five star review on iTunes that really, really helps. For more of this, whatever the hell this is, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. And you can follow Phil Hudson on social media Phil aHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane and music was composed by Anthony Rizzo. And remember, you can have excuses or you can have a creative life, but you can’t have both. See you next week.

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Michael Jamin, Showrunner, TV Writer, Author

Michael Jamin

For the past 26 years, Michael Jamin has been a professional television writer/showrunner. His credits include King of the Hill, Beavis & Butthead, Wilfred, Maron, Just Shoot Me, Rules of Engagement, Brickleberry, Tacoma FD and many more.

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