This week’s guest on Screenwriters Need To Hear This is Comedian Taylor Williamson.
Taylor’s Website: https://taylorwilliamson.com
Taylor’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/taylorcomedy/
Taylor on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm2743976/
Michael’s Online Screenwriting Course – https://michaeljamin.com/course
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Taylor Williamson (00:00:00):
They could have gone way harder on me. These real, these reality show contracts are insane. Like lawyers tell you, don’t sign them like they have the rights to like, own your soul forever and things you make for the future and stuff. You can find the contracts online. It’s really, really bad.
Michael Jamin (00:00:13):
You’re listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin.
Hey everyone. It’s Michael Jamin and you’re listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear This. I got a special guest today. I always say that when I have a special guest, but this time we have a world famous comedian. And now what does comedians have to do with screenwriters? Well, comedy writing, it’s a form, it’s a form of writing. Taylor. So we’re here with Taylor, Taylor Williamson, who was, let me get you, lemme make sure I get this right. You runner up on America’s Got Talent. What, what, how long, what, what year was that? Because
Taylor Williamson (00:00:48):
We, we just say recently, fairly recently. Recently in the spectrum of time, you know,
Michael Jamin (00:00:52):
Yesterday. And the how I met you was because, so we’ve been friends Taylor, we’ve been friends for a long time, but which means I’m probably not gonna be as nice to you as on this podcast as if we weren’t friends. So you’re just be far warned.
Taylor Williamson (00:01:08):
Michael Jamin (00:01:09):
Taylor Williamson (00:01:10):
<Laugh>, you’re not gonna be as ni you’re gonna be less nice to me cause we’re friends.
Michael Jamin (00:01:14):
Yeah, it’s the chat. It’s all cordial. You’re on our podcast. So that’s how, I mean, it’s
Taylor Williamson (00:01:18):
Michael Jamin (00:01:20):
But I wanna tell everyone how we met. So we, we met, I guess a few years back. It was, it was a w it was a little bit.
Taylor Williamson (00:01:27):
Michael Jamin (00:01:28):
And you had, you had just, I guess you had just won or, you know, runner up to America’s Got Talent and comedian and you were, you were poppin. And so I don’t remember exactly how, but you, our manager’s teamed us up and you had an idea for a TV show based on your life. You were looking for writers. My partner and I met, we met our managers, teamed us up. We we met in kind of conversation. We liked what you had to say. And we thought, yeah, let’s, let’s try to develop a show and see if we can get it off the ground. And that’s kind of how it works, is like, some people say like, well, I’m a comedian. Make a show about me. No, no, no. You don’t understand. You were having this moment. You were, you know, you were, you were meaningful to the network because of your appearance on the, your, your success on that show. And that’s how we went about it.
Taylor Williamson (00:02:13):
Right? No one else even wanted to meet with us. And then you guys seem so excited. I was like, are they playing a trick on us or are they terrible? <Laugh>, why? No, I’m, I’m have, I’m slightly, I mean, I’m joking about the mean part. Unlike you being serious about the mean part. Yeah, <laugh>, there was one other fancy showrunner guy who was attached, I think, while you were also attached. And I was confused. What was hap like, why we have,
Michael Jamin (00:02:37):
We, we couldn’t have both been attached. That’s not possible.
Taylor Williamson (00:02:40):
I don’t know. There was a guy, I’m just, I’ll, I mean, obviously I’ll tell you, we, you already know this stuff from years ago just to remind you. But like, there was another like, executive producer guy who was attached and then you guys, when we met with you guys as well, and everyone was gonna be a part of it in different ways. And I guess you would’ve been the
Michael Jamin (00:02:59):
Taylor Williamson (00:03:00):
I guess. But then I thought he was, I didn’t, I don’t know what’s going on. I, you know, I’m the, I’m the dumb comedian who’s just all these, these, these Jewish people are telling me what to do. And I’m Jewish, by the way. I don’t wanna sound like the new Kanye West. I was making a, I was playing along with Kanye. Wait, I playing against You’re Jewish. Can you say me Hebrew Happy Hanukkah <laugh>,
Michael Jamin (00:03:20):
Hebrew <laugh>. Dude, I wanna know, I wanna know. So Taylor’s a, you know, com touring comedian. You work all the time. You tore the country. But I wanna know, I guess I wanna know how you broke into the business. Like how did you go from open mics to getting paid to do this?
Taylor Williamson (00:03:38):
We’ll, we’ll cut out the last 12 minutes. That I said so far, right?
Michael Jamin (00:03:42):
If you No, I, that’s we’re gonna lead with that. <Laugh>
Taylor Williamson (00:03:45):
<Laugh>. I feel like you have like real writers, those people that say, let me just say that. Well, are we just gonna talk more about that? I think that’s interesting. We
Michael Jamin (00:03:52):
Could talk about anything you wanna talk about.
Taylor Williamson (00:03:54):
I don’t mean I, like, I made jokey answers to whatever, but yeah, we, I, it was, I think it’s important to share this stuff. And I, I came up, I had to show idea that I liked and then my, my friend is I’m taking over the show.
Michael Jamin (00:04:08):
No, no. Okay. I’ll get back to what we have. We got some time to fill here, so we’ll get back to my questions.
Taylor Williamson (00:04:13):
Well, so no, I’m taking over, I’m answering your question, buddy. Yeah,
Michael Jamin (00:04:16):
I know, but I was steering the conversation away from your answer.
Taylor Williamson (00:04:19):
So then Jillian Bell, who’s a great comedian, actress, writer person and mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, she was interested in the show and and then she wanted to produce the show. That’s right. Signed. It’s a fun facts show business. I used to be with the management company that, that she was with, and I was no longer with them. And I brought this idea to them and my reps were not enthusiastic about it. Yeah. But then, so I, and I stopped working with them, but then a year later, Jillian Bell was interested in the idea, same show, then me go into their office with Jillian and then they’re like, Jillian, this is a great idea. <Laugh>, I’m like, the show. This
Michael Jamin (00:04:55):
Is funny. She, I totally forgot that she was involved in it, but that’s an, but that’s right. Cuz she brought another piece to the puzzle. It was like, yeah. And you did, which was like, it’s all about how many pieces of this puzzle can you, like, how much more can you bring to the table? And her involvement, the fact that you had this other, you know, she was a, she’s an actress, actor, producer she’s trying to get into the producing field and that was another piece of the puzzle, which made it more meaningful. So that’s how Yeah. You weren’t just like some random dude, you know, you kind of put these pieces together.
Taylor Williamson (00:05:24):
Yeah. And then obvi, I mean, she helped tremendously and I wouldn’t have gotten to you and Siever if if it was not for her. And then we met with you guys and it was such a joy and we could talk about it as much as you want. But but anyways, but how did I start comedy? I, I was 17. I was like, I got into STEM comedy in high school. I never liked comedy as a kid. I remember being at the airport and the, as a child and some guy was like, I’m a comedian. Ugh. And he is like so obnoxious. And I’ve always hated that kind of comedy. Like, people are like, look at me, I’m a comedian. I got some jokes. You know? So I think that that scarred me for life. So I was like, I don’t like, and my brother liked comedy stand up comedy, so I said, I don’t like stand up comedy cause like dumb sibling ri sibling rivalry stuff. And it makes no, I’m not proud of anything. So I’m saying I still stand by hating those obnoxious comedians who like, tell it when the com Hey, I’m a comedian, nice to meet you. Like, you know. Yeah. I don’t need that. And then then,
Michael Jamin (00:06:19):
But that’s funny cause I always say like, people who have to advertise that they’re funny, <laugh> not be funny. You know what I’m saying? They have to put it on their business card, you know? Funny guy.
Taylor Williamson (00:06:28):
Michael Jamin (00:06:29):
Taylor Williamson (00:06:30):
Go ahead. And for the record, I’ve been saying I’m not funny. This entire, I’ve this entire convers we believe, I believe you <laugh>. Fair. Good. I’m glad that’s clear. Yeah. And then in high school I got into standup a lot as a being a fan of it. And then and then I’m from San Diego and rest in Peace. Her name is Sandy Seashore, Mitzi’s daughter from the comedy store. Polly’s sister had a comedy workshop in San Diego. And I’m, I’m 17. And I’m like, oh, that seems like a way to start, you know? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I don’t necessarily encourage comedy classes.
Michael Jamin (00:07:08):
Taylor Williamson (00:07:10):
At first standup comedy, improv sketch. Yeah, standup fine. It helps you get your feet wet and you learn structure and stuff. But generally you’re learn. I learned what not to do really. I don’t, you kinda, there’s
Michael Jamin (00:07:24):
No structure though. What do they teach you there? You get comfortable learn on the funny, on the funny word.
Taylor Williamson (00:07:29):
Yeah. It’s just like helping dissect. I don’t know. Everyone has, there’s no curriculum for comedy classes, but I learned a lot of things, what not to do. And I watched things being rewarded. Everyone should be like, this is not what I want to do. This is not right. And you’re in the class with a bunch of crazy people too, honestly. You know? And
Michael Jamin (00:07:47):
What kind of things do you learn that you, you’re not supposed to
Taylor Williamson (00:07:50):
Do? I, as I was saying that I was like, that’s gonna be a, a follow up question. I can’t think of one, but like, rule of threes all this, I don’t, I don’t like the, I don’t like these. It’s just like, yes, those are things, right? But then also it doesn’t have to be as such, you know? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> I’m trying to think of like better examples of that. But here’s the positive that I got out of it is if you’re fat, talk about it. If you’re skinny, talk about it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and the, this is what I got out of the class that’s invaluable, is that everything I got picked on in school was things that were like my superpower as a comedian or a writer. So like, all the bullies were like, Hey, you talk weird or you walk weird or you’re a dork. And I, and I, I was able to spin all of those into, I go on stage, hey, so I’m weird and I, I talk weird and I walk and then people are like, we like you. And it’s just kind of a beautiful thing to do comedy writing. It’s
Michael Jamin (00:08:45):
So funny. Yeah. This is what I say all the time to people, which is talk to talk about your vulnerabilities. That’s what you want to talk about. And, you know, in screenwriting. But it’s the same thing with standup. You know,
Taylor Williamson (00:08:55):
If that’s, yeah. And I guess it’s a standup that I, I, and I, I don’t have better answers than this at the, off the top of my head cuz it was so long ago. But I remember like, it’s like you learn to go like, oh, I’m half Jewish and I’m half Italians, so that means I like pizza that’s on sale. You know? And then they go, right, great. Like, no thanks, come on. So it teaches you that kind of, but it, it does teach you what a joke is and it teaches you to get comfortable on stage and it teaches you what’s out there. But I don’t know, it can make a hacky hack comedian, you know?
Michael Jamin (00:09:32):
And then what came next? So it open mics after that you put together a five minute act or
Taylor Williamson (00:09:36):
Something. So I was k very tenacious and ridiculous. And I knew I was very, I did very, I was very good for my age. And this is also the time when not everyone’s on Instagram and TikTok and all this stuff. So like, I was maybe one of the three 17 year old standup comedians out there, Uhhuh <affirmative>, like, you know what I mean? So I was probably the best music quotation of fingers. 17 year old com, I don’t know. So I got all, I got attention and I was really good, especially in front of that supportive body. It’s represented by their friends and stuff, you know? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I didn’t invite anybody, but like in that safe space, I, I don’t know, I was very good at my age. I don’t know, this probably sounds douchy, but, so I moved to LA to for college, but really for comedy. And it was very humbling doing an open mic that was not that safe space. And then the crowd wasn’t so supportive. I’m like, what, what’s wrong with you people? Oh wait, that’s not real. This is real. You know? Yeah. But I got really good video footage, videotape, footage b you know, BCRs, those things. And who,
Michael Jamin (00:10:42):
Who brought the camera?
Taylor Williamson (00:10:43):
So the comedy workshop, you pay like four, 4 billion and then you get to do the eight weeks, then you get a tape at the end. So I got a killer tape. So I sent that to the, the producers of the Tonight Show, <laugh>. I sent it to the last comic standing producers. I sent it to Eddie Brill, who booked David Letterman. So like, I was 18, I was, gosh, was it before I was 18. And did
Michael Jamin (00:11:08):
They they write back? Yeah. Did they reach out? What’d
Taylor Williamson (00:11:10):
They say? Yeah. Every time.
Michael Jamin (00:11:12):
<Laugh>, what’d they
Taylor Williamson (00:11:12):
Say? These guys, every time I remember I never got, I don’t believe I ever got them on the phone. Eddie Bri Letterman guy called me. I remember, I remember being in college 18 in the hallway. I had a voicemail from the booker for Letterman. Nowadays I would’ve recorded it and saved it. You know, this is like flip from time. So, and he was like, thanks for the tape. Funny jokes. Cause I remember reading somewhere that he responds to every bird, everyone who submits. And I remember he said, yeah, you can’t do the AIDS joke on the show, <laugh> the aids. It was like, you g it wasn’t a AIDS joke, but it was like, the joke was, I was trying to be Bitch Hedberg at the time, you know, like brilliant one-liner guy. I’ll show me one of those guys. So like, I remember being like, all these people are walking for aids, so I’m against aids.
I don’t know. You know what I mean? Right. Some dumb joke like that. And he’s like, you can’t say that. You can’t say that, but keep working at it. Whatever. And the Bob Reedit Tonight Show was so sweet and he seemed accessible to me cuz he was a judge on last comic standing, the first few, few seasons. Uhhuh <affirmative>. So he would send me the tape back, say, thanks for the tape, keep working at it. They would literally return this sender, but with a note and Thank you. And, and then the last time he called me or sent me like the third time, he was like, you don’t have to keep sending me tapes <laugh>. But he is still supportive though. You know, like, it was like, Hey, you don’t have to keep doing, it wasn’t like, leave me alone. But like, it was like, I think, I think he called me to tell me to stop chill, chill a little bit, you know,
Michael Jamin (00:12:39):
Give some, give some time. But then like you would, do you know if other comics who do this, like reach out? Is that how you Well,
Taylor Williamson (00:12:46):
I think funny shows, I think crazy 40 year olds do it now. I think. Like, I was cute cause I was young. Oh, I, I can’t imagine what their emails are like now. You know? Now it’s much of insane. Not well,
Michael Jamin (00:12:56):
But you wouldn’t, you don’t know anybody. Like, you wouldn’t do this to get booked on any of these shows. Now that’s not, I
Taylor Williamson (00:13:00):
Mean, I mean now I, I do, but I know the people Uhhuh, <affirmative>, you know what I’m saying? Now I’m like, I’ve done all these things. Would you please take a look at my, I ha I nowadays, if I wanna get on like James Cordon and I have the guy’s email and I make a five minute tape and I send them a nice email, hi, I’m Taylor, I’ve done these things. Or how you been? We had coffee one time, whatever. But I Does
Michael Jamin (00:13:22):
That work? Does that stuff work?
Taylor Williamson (00:13:24):
Yeah. I mean, I haven’t been on James Cordon, so maybe not. But yeah, they, I mean, if you’re professional in this business, like Uhhuh <affirmative>, I’ve a mistake that I’ve made, and I’m even sure my reps would agree, like, don’t go through them for everything. Like I, I used to think you have to go through representation and get shit done. Can I curse on this show? Yeah. A a big mistake I made in this business is not using my personal relationships that I have and just reaching out myself.
Michael Jamin (00:13:48):
That’s so, man, dude, it’s so interesting. Cause I say the same exact things, but for screenwriter, like I say, people think that I get, I need an agent, I need a manager. Like, that’s gonna change your life. And the truth is, it’s not, you still gotta do 99% of the work yourself.
Taylor Williamson (00:14:04):
<Laugh>. I honest, I’m grateful to any of my reps who are listening to this. They’re not listening. And I mean it sincerely, like I’ve been news for 19 years. So like, I have like old men wisdom, even though I’m not like a thousand years old yet. But like almost everything that I’ve gotten that was like monumental or big, big deal was without representation. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> like respect to them for making the deals way better than it would’ve been at them itself or to, to them for making something. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> taken to the next level. You know, that’s their jobs. You know, I think most honest and classy agents and managers would agree that Yeah. Like they, they pour gasoline on fires, but you have to start the fire yourself. Yeah. And like, you gotta do it. And I thought it was unprofessional to reach out without them.
Now do, like, I’m, I’m selling unscripted shows right now. That’s kinda what I’m hustling on. And I just say, Hey, Jillian told me this, or her sister told me this. She was a producing partner who’s brilliant too. Like, yeah. She just goes, Hey, I had a meeting with, I’m making up, I had a meeting with paramount today. Oh cool. How was it? You know? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So I, I call my agent agent and go, I said, I have these three pitch meetings today. Can you please reach out to some of these places I don’t have? And sometimes I just go, can you gimme their email? Cause they have Rolodex.
Michael Jamin (00:15:28):
Taylor Williamson (00:15:29):
Interesting. Do I sound like a crazy person right
Michael Jamin (00:15:30):
Now? No. And so you set up the meeting yourself? Is that what you’re saying?
Taylor Williamson (00:15:34):
Honestly, I set up a, like I try to do it myself and then I reach out to them if I need help, even for comedy club bookings.
Michael Jamin (00:15:40):
Whoa. Let’s talk about that. What do you mean for comedy book? So you have a, you don’t have a separate booker for
Taylor Williamson (00:15:45):
Comedy clubs? I have a booking agent who’s awesome and, but like, I just got a gig in Atlanta at the com, at the Punchline comedy club out there. And the guy texted me cause he knows me, right. I’m just long enough before I know the pe I know them. So I can just like some, some of these owners of comedy clubs, I can just text and say, Hey, I’ve done your, you know, I’ve done the club 10 times, you know? Mm-Hmm. So like, I’ve been there the 30 days of my life. I’ve hung out with these people. Hey, can I I’d love to come. I’d love to do a weekend with you guys. You have anything
Michael Jamin (00:16:15):
Coming up? Is that, and is that what you do? I mean, you’ll fly to Atlanta and you’ll do a couple of shows at this one club? Or do you go on tour? Like, do you go from Atlanta to the next city, whatever the next city, Raleigh. I mean, we used to, you might make a tour of it or do you just keep flying back and forth to la
Taylor Williamson (00:16:30):
That’s kind of, a lot of people are doing that now. Like, I mean, that’s always been kind of, if you’re like gym Gaffigan level or like mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, whatever. Like if you’re a superstar, you’re, you’re doing like theater, theater, theater, you know? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I’m still comedy club level guy. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So I do weekends. But a lot of these TikTok stars, like people who are getting like independently famous just from their social media, like yourself, honestly, they’re, they’re doing off nights at comedy clubs. So like, they’re doing like Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, they’ll be in Cincinnati one night. They’ll go to date in the next night. They’ll go to Toledo the next night.
Michael Jamin (00:17:08):
Why Off nights though? What’s that about?
Taylor Williamson (00:17:10):
Because the weekends are tradition. The business is changing so much. But in comedy clubs, the weekends are traditionally held for quote, established comedians. Uhhuh, the idea being that if some randoms walk in, they’re gonna have a good time. Like, I’m Taylor, I’m a comedian, I’ve been on America Set Talent, I’ve done Economy Central, all these things. But like, if people just walking, cause they wanna see a comedy show, they’re probably gonna be fine, you know? But like on a Tuesday they would book a TikTok dancer or they’ll book someone who just got famous cuz they’re really funny and people are connected to their jokes, but they haven’t been around that much.
Michael Jamin (00:17:52):
But they can still put Get Asses and Cs.
Taylor Williamson (00:17:55):
Right. But also the other side of it, the business side of it too is if I do a weekend, I can get a guaranteed deal. Uhhuh. <affirmative>, that’s enough for me to come out no matter what. If we sell lots of tickets or not, but the people going on a Tuesday, they could make more money than I if they sell every ticket. The venue is more willing to give up equity in ticket sales on an off night than on a weekend.
Michael Jamin (00:18:18):
And so what does equity ha like splitting the door?
Taylor Williamson (00:18:20):
Yeah. So like if, so a a comic who, if you can sell out 300, 400 seats or whatever the venue seats on a Tuesday night, you can say the venue give me 80% ticket sales, I’ll, I’ll fly on 80%. Yeah. Or more, you know, I’ll come in on Wednesday, you get drink sales, I’ll get the ticket sales And the clubs. Have
Michael Jamin (00:18:40):
These venues have 300 seats or is it some of
Taylor Williamson (00:18:42):
Michael Jamin (00:18:43):
A lot? Or is that just like the number of shows? Because I thought they’re like, I thought most of these clubs are smaller.
Taylor Williamson (00:18:48):
A lot of comedy clubs now are switching to bigger venues because they’re trying to compete with theaters. Okay. Because thanks to Netflix and social media, comedians are selling more tickets than they’ve ever sold. Ever. Like, like there was just, there’s a poll star that just came out. This is public information. Like Burt Chrysler made 25 million touring last year. This year.
Michael Jamin (00:19:11):
Like we almost, we almost did a show with Bert <laugh>. Yeah, we talked about it. Now he’s 25 million. That’s a lot of money. His house wasn’t that nice. <Laugh>.
Taylor Williamson (00:19:19):
Well that no,
Michael Jamin (00:19:20):
It’s wasn’t 25 million.
Taylor Williamson (00:19:22):
Well now he has three houses. Neil Brennan just did a podcast with David Letterman bragging about how Burt er is killing it and let him in like was like laughing, rubbing his eyes like 25 million <laugh>. That’s probably more, that’s legit. Probably more than he made doing his show. Legit, you know, and
Michael Jamin (00:19:39):
Taylor Williamson (00:19:40):
Yeah, just touring. And I mean, to be fair, that’s gross sales before commission, right? I mean, as we all know, like that’s before 30, 30% commission. You know, you’re aging 30% commission.
Michael Jamin (00:19:50):
Taylor Williamson (00:19:50):
Man. Tour manager, lawyer, maybe no lawyer for touring
Michael Jamin (00:19:54):
Your tour manager. They take 10%.
Taylor Williamson (00:19:57):
I’m, I said business man. So your manager takes 10%, your agent takes 10%, your business manager takes 5%.
Michael Jamin (00:20:04):
Well you don’t need a business manager, but you need touring manager.
Taylor Williamson (00:20:08):
I, so I don’t know how he does tour manager. I’m just thinking like, normal manager. Wow,
Michael Jamin (00:20:13):
This is so interesting. I didn’t know this talk was gonna be as interesting as it is.
Taylor Williamson (00:20:16):
Oh, you know what Mr. But last thing I say is Bert said on a podcast that he said that just talk to him. You actually, you don’t have to talk to him. Just talk to me. I’ll tell you about him. He said he wouldn’t take a movie or TV show right now. The wildest thing to hear a comedian say I get it. But like that’s so not how we all started. Because he’s making so much touring and he has, he has gigs booked and he, his fans, he has such connection with his fans.
Michael Jamin (00:20:40):
That’s so interesting. Cause I’ve never ied to develop a show and it was his idea. And then he kind of, I think he lost interest of his own idea probably because he is like, I don’t need to do this. I can make more money on, on the road.
Taylor Williamson (00:20:50):
Wow. Yeah. And it just, the dream is just different now. Like I started in 2003 and like I, my dream at that time, I’m sure we talked about this during one of our writing sessions slash therapy sessions for me. Yeah. But like, I wanted to do like Timal and Drew Carey, Ray Romano, all that, that you become a really funny comedian. You work hard and then you pair up with brilliant comedy writer like yourself and then you get a sitcom. And that’s not how it goes anymore. Most people don’t want to bolt at Cam sitcom even like Yeah. You know what’s kind of interesting too? My girlfriend is an actress, so she’s brilliant and then comedian and all the things. She’s absolutely brilliant. And she’s Filipino and she’s, I said to her like, I had all these people I wanted to be like, and I don’t know what to do anymore. You know, one of those things. And she’s like, that’s cool that you had people that you watched on TV that you wanted, that had a blueprint for you. Cuz I never had that. I was able Oh,
Michael Jamin (00:21:51):
So you’re saying because she’s Phillips there weren’t any role models for
Taylor Williamson (00:21:53):
Her. There was no like, oh, I wanna be like that. I wanna be like that. It was just kind of like rufi respect. But like the guy who played Rufio and Hook and Tia Carre Respect, you know, I think she’s
Michael Jamin (00:22:01):
Yeah. Yeah. But
Taylor Williamson (00:22:02):
Like, yeah. It’s just
Michael Jamin (00:22:04):
Interesting. But she’s an actor comedian.
Taylor Williamson (00:22:05):
Michael Jamin (00:22:07):
And does she, so she, do you, do you work a lot with her then?
Taylor Williamson (00:22:11):
We are pitch show together, actually, but no, no, she’s not really standup. She’s more of a Oh, she’s a standup, but she’s, she’s an actor and stuff.
Michael Jamin (00:22:17):
So how did you meet her then?
Taylor Williamson (00:22:19):
We met doing standup like a million years ago. We, but we reconnected recently. Wow.
Michael Jamin (00:22:25):
Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. And so you, and so I, so when you, when you talk about reality show or or unscripted, what, like, what are you, you don’t have to tell me your ideas, but is that your, for you to star in some kind of unscripted show that you’re
Taylor Williamson (00:22:37):
Saying, yeah, please don’t steal my ideas.
Michael Jamin (00:22:39):
I, you, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t know anything about scripted. People ask me about scripted all the time. Like, I don’t know how it
Taylor Williamson (00:22:45):
Works. I don’t know how it works either, honestly. But it’s what you said though. It’s, you have an idea and then you get people, people go, I don’t know. And then you get someone attached to people trust and they go, oh, that’s a great idea. <Laugh>,
You convinced the person who people res have, who has the equity in that field and status or whatever you wanna use whatever word you wanna use. And then and that’s, that’s what I’ve done. So like, I, the, the success I’ve had in unscripted TV is I had a travel show on Spike tv or a pilot a few years ago mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And I knew this guy Tom Beers, who’s like a genius. He’s like a mad scientist for unscripted television. And he’s, he’s got a really inspiring story. Like he became a superstar, like in his fifties. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And like, he wasn’t a millionaire to his fifties, but then he became like super millionaire. He created Deadliest Catch and Ice Road Truckers and Oh and a Thousand Ways to Die in Storage Wars and stuff. And he won the Emmy every year for Deadliest Catch. Yeah.
Michael Jamin (00:23:42):
I loved Deadliest Catch.
Taylor Williamson (00:23:43):
Yeah. And and so I, I knew him through cuz he was the c e O of Freemantle after he’s sold his company to Freemantle, which produced a G T. So, and I had a holding deal with Freemantle and N B C. So I just reached out to him after I had some bummer business stuff happen. And I just reached out to him. Cause there was a nice guy who I know he saw me perform and he liked me and he was nice to me. And then and then he started his, I messaged him on Facebook. Like, I, like I don’t have his phone number, you know? Right. And this is a few years ago. And then he, we met up and we brainstormed a lot and him and his partners and at his company and we got a pilot with Spike TV after. And it was like, this is like a two year process by the way. Like Yeah. It takes forever. It was a whole thing. And then you selling a pilot, I didn’t get any money, you know what I mean? <Laugh>, I making a, I didn’t get any money.
Michael Jamin (00:24:41):
Didn’t make any, you didn’t make any money at all. Went the budget of the show. Tell me what your, so tell me what a holding deal for the ever loved one. Listen, what exactly is a holding deal?
Taylor Williamson (00:24:50):
So I got the janky kind of holding deal you get nowadays, like I hear comedians from the nineties talk about their holding deals. They would get paid hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to be exclusive to networks.
Michael Jamin (00:25:03):
Yeah. And never actually get anything made. But they would hear pitches or sometimes they would pitch. Right.
Taylor Williamson (00:25:08):
Yeah. So it’s like you just, you they’d get pilots or they have shows built around. I mean, I’m telling you, I’m telling you know about the audience. You know, you tell the audience
Michael Jamin (00:25:15):
No, but you tell me what, what your, what your janky
Taylor Williamson (00:25:17):
Holding was. So I got the Janky Reality show holding deal where, and they didn’t force it upon me. Like I was flat grateful for it, but I think it was $10,000. So from being America’s Got Talent, they had the option, they could have gone way harder on me. These real, these reality show contracts are insane. Like lawyers tell you don’t sign them. Like they have the rights to like own your soul forever and things you make for the future and stuff. You can find the contracts online, it’s really, really bad. But they didn’t
Michael Jamin (00:25:44):
You don’t sign those, you don’t sign those contracts
Taylor Williamson (00:25:46):
Or Well, I did it when I was a contestant cause I was desperate.
Michael Jamin (00:25:50):
Well, that, well that’s another thing. Okay. So you did sign one of those contracts, the A G T, but they don’t own you now?
Taylor Williamson (00:25:55):
No, no, no. And it was for a couple years. And it’s confusing cause I was on the show last week, but the contract ended after a couple of years. It’s confusing. But yeah, they
Michael Jamin (00:26:04):
They keep on calling you to back into,
Taylor Williamson (00:26:07):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So
Michael Jamin (00:26:08):
Heidi, I know Heidi loves you.
Taylor Williamson (00:26:09):
Yeah. she says hi by the way,
Michael Jamin (00:26:13):
<Laugh>. I know she does.
Taylor Williamson (00:26:15):
But so the, there’s a contract that I signed that I’m sure is similar. It’s probably worse now honestly. But they have the rights to like specials and ticket sales and all these things they could have claimed because like One Direction, Simon Cal owned one sixth of One Direction, I believe. Interesting. Cause they were an X Factor show.
Michael Jamin (00:26:35):
Taylor Williamson (00:26:36):
Right. So he, he put them together and he owned them. So they, but they didn’t take a penny from me. But the holding deal was, they had the option for a holding deal and I could have fought it and they, I don’t think they would’ve enforced it upon me. Right, right. But and I heard that kids can get out of this stuff. The crazy, if you’re under 18, you can just be like, I’m 16, leave me alone. Whatever you sign. I think there’s a thing I heard that’s if you’re a teenager that wants to be in a reality show. But so I, I had like a $10,000 holding deal, which my reps thought it was a good idea to go with it because I would be touring so much that whole year and then we could develop something. It was the NBC and Fremantle. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I was frustrated by it because I wasn’t supposed to audition for things outside of that. So I felt restrained while it didn’t go the way I hoped it would. But because Do you
Michael Jamin (00:27:25):
Do a lot of auditions for acting parts?
Taylor Williamson (00:27:27):
Not as much as I like, but I do. Oh really? Yeah. I just auditioned for Caribbean Enthusiasm and I was so excited cuz I’ve al I’ve never been able to get that even on audition. And that’s my dream to be on that.
Michael Jamin (00:27:36):
And so was that for casting or did you go directly to Larry?
Taylor Williamson (00:27:39):
It’s all online now. Oh. So from my understanding, when you audition for Kir, you go, you go to Larry. Like you’re, you play, you play with him. Right. But Right. Even like my cousin’s an actress, my girlfriend, like the most successful p people, it’s still on tape.
Michael Jamin (00:27:55):
Yeah, right, right. I forgot about that. It’s been so long.
Taylor Williamson (00:27:58):
<Laugh>. Yeah. But, but even, even like an improv. So, but I’m saying that even like an improv audition, which is curb. Yeah. Like you just ramble with your friend that you’re filming it with.
Michael Jamin (00:28:07):
See that’s, that’s hard, especially for improv cuz your friend, you have to play with your friend. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Wow. And so, yeah. So, so how did you go from, I have so many questions, but how did you go from that first standup you’re doing open mics to actually someone paying you?
Taylor Williamson (00:28:24):
I got my first paid gig about a year in like, I got a lot of, so I sent my tape to like, everyone you should never send your tape to like, like just cuz I had a, I was, I mean, looking back, I was very, if you go online you can find some clips. Thankfully that took out the problematic stuff. It was different time period. <Laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. But like, I’m not, but like but like I was very good for my age and like, so I sent my tape to people and then I got booked at the improv in Ontario when I was 18. That was my first paycheck.
Michael Jamin (00:28:54):
You to tape when you, okay, you say you’re taped to Booker, to the owners of comedy
Taylor Williamson (00:28:57):
Stores. Man managers and agents. I contacted manager agency. Yeah.
Michael Jamin (00:29:01):
But is that okay?
Taylor Williamson (00:29:03):
You should not do that. It’s not the move to do. It’s insanity. And it’s a different time now where you don’t need to
Michael Jamin (00:29:08):
Do that. So how would, so how would you, if you’re trying to break in, so how, if you, how are you today? Go get, if you’re doing open mics for, I don’t know if you’re ready after doing,
Taylor Williamson (00:29:16):
I can tell you exact what someone should do today. Yeah. To post their clips on in my day. You don’t post your clips. I remember when I, when I, I was submitting for, I made a tape. I’m trying to remember exactly why I made a tape. I uploaded it to YouTube at private YouTube. I don’t even think private was an option or I didn’t know how to do it. I don’t know. But I uploaded a clip on YouTube and this is 2007 mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And I wanted it anyway, I got on Craig Ferguson when I was 20 in 2007. And I rushed to get the tape off of YouTube. Cause I didn’t wanna have my jokes on YouTube. Cuz the, the thought back then was, and I still did fix this in my, myself, my head. I, I started like two a couple years too early.
Cuz the ti the, the business and rule the rules in our brain just changed so much. I don’t know if you, if you, if you ever feel like that, but you, you’re such an amazing job doing things the way you things are done now. But anyways, but we didn’t want our ec clips online because we thought people are gonna come see us perform. They’re gonna hear the jokes again. And comedy doesn’t work the way music does. Where you want to hear the, the repeat of like, I could hear a Foo Fighters sing Everlong 12 times in a row. Be like, this is great. You know? Right. But stand up. You don’t wanna hear the same joke 12 times, you know, so, but now, like, you want, you want your clips online and I struggle with that cause
Michael Jamin (00:30:37):
So Well why do you want your clips online? Do don’t, I mean, don’t you still feel like they don’t want to hear your jokes again?
Taylor Williamson (00:30:43):
Yeah, but that’s not, it’s not how younger people are or anyone is. The consumers aren’t like that now. I think they want,
Michael Jamin (00:30:49):
If you act online, will they go see it at a club even though they’ve already heard it? Yeah, they will. They will see it. They’ll hear it
Taylor Williamson (00:30:54):
Twice. I don’t think people hold on to joke memory like that.
Michael Jamin (00:30:58):
Taylor Williamson (00:30:58):
Yeah. And, and enough people, I think the idea is that listen, say best case scenario, even if you’re famous, 40% of the people saw that clip you posted. They bring a date, they bring their friends. Right. There’s gonna be enough people laughing where everyone’s okay and their friends says, I love that joke. Oh yeah, I saw ’em on Instagram. That’s why people be excited that they knew about it. And now people are into like, I’m old and I always liked if music was on mtv, I liked it. But if they’re indie, I didn’t listen to it. Which is so stupid and ignorant and not thank God as an artist. Other people don’t feel like that, you know. But like, people want him, people like loving some Instagram comic now. And like I have a buddy, Ralph Barbosa, he’s a really special young comedian. He’s like 26 or 27 out of Dallas. He’s been posting clips on Instagram and TikTok. He went from like 4,000 followers in April to like 160,000. Now in December when we’re taping this and on TikTok, he has way more,
Michael Jamin (00:31:57):
He’s posting clips that he records at a club.
Taylor Williamson (00:32:00):
Yeah. He’s po he’s selling out more tickets than like, I think than I sold. I don’t know, I don’t know all his numbers, but I think he’s selling you more than I sold after being on America’s Got Talent for a Year. You know what I’m saying? Interesting. He just sold out eight shows at the Hollywood Improv in, in February.
Michael Jamin (00:32:19):
And how many seats is that?
Taylor Williamson (00:32:21):
I don’t know. 200 something really. But he sold them out months in, in advance. It’s wild. It’s wild. It’s wild. And they gave him the Wednesday night cuz he’s a young comic who’s new and whatever. Then they gave him a slate, show ends it, then they gave him a Tuesday, they gave him LA show Tuesday. Then they’re like, okay, you want the whole week <laugh>. I haven’t seen that since. Wow. Maybe Joe Coy or Gabriel Glacia. You know, that’s
Michael Jamin (00:32:43):
So interesting because, because you really are, you’re, it’s hard to get people outta their house on a week weekend, a weeknight. And yet they’ll come out to see
Taylor Williamson (00:32:50):
Him. I commented on one of his posts, he’s this kid open for me. He’s like my little opener. I say Little is younger than me, like, but like, he’s like, he’s a kid who, when I went to Dallas, he’d be like, can I open for you again? And like, you have any other gigs? And I’m like, you know what? He’s funny. He’s nice. I would take him to lunch and like, I treated him the way I wish people would’ve treated me when I was that age, you know, and younger or whatever. And and some people did. And it meant a lot to me, you know? And like I knew he’s special. I knew he is gonna do something, but how do you know he’s gonna be like in two years? You know? Wow. And but he opened, he was my opener in Dallas like seven months ago. And now he’s like, he’s gonna be in la I’m like, can I, can I open for you on your shows
Michael Jamin (00:33:33):
Taylor Williamson (00:33:33):
That right? No joke. You know. Wow. Like, and and I’m actually coming, I’m working on a, what’s kind of special too is like me and Chip Pope, you know our friendship. Yeah, yeah. We, we were, I said to Chip cuz I, I talked to my friend who was producing a thing for Netflix, like a new faces type thing for standups in like February. And I was like, you gotta get this guy Ralph and audition. And so we came out for that and I was like, Ralph is so special, we gotta come up with an A show for him. And like, so we’ve been talking about it for a while and now serendipitously he’s become like this little superstar. He’s in Dallas and he’s, he got represent, he’s got the biggest agent and biggest manager. He didn’t have to move to la he didn’t have to move to New York.
He’s staying in Dallas. It’s, I’m posting on social media being funny and working hard. He was seen the, the Alleg. So anyways, but so we’re, we’re working on a show with him now, which I’m really excited about a scripted show. And wow. But the last thing I’ll say on that is the confusing thing for me is it used to be you tap dance for like a, a, a gatekeeper. Like trying to get some kind of producer to like, I hope they were your email, they booked me or whatever, whatever. Now you’re, you’re trying to make an algorithm like you
Michael Jamin (00:34:44):
Well, but I, but I think it’s more about, cuz I say something like this as well as people are saying, well how do I break into Hollywood? How will you read my script? Will, like how do I get a manager or agent? It’s like, dude, all of this stuff you could do on your own. Yeah. You, you don’t have to beg for permission. You just do it. Yeah. They do it and make it great and people will come to you.
Michael Jamin (00:35:07):
Hey, it’s Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I’m not gonna spam you and it’s absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.
Taylor Williamson (00:35:31):
You know what’s funny? It, it sounds k like easy for you to say or it sounds kind of like, like bullshit advice on mm-hmm. <Affirmative> at first. Like, like how I used to, I remember they, how do, like an agent will they find you? How do they find you will get it seen by them? Well, we gotta get booked. It, it was just like, but what comes first? Chicken and their egg kind of thing. Whatever. And what you just said sounds the same, but now is like, someone’s been around a long time. You’re right. And it sounds not fair and it sounds ridiculous. I’m seeing it all day and like, can I tell you my agent, I, I’m with a great agent at a great agency and like they rep Dave Chappelle and stuff. He’s not, I, I don’t think I’m speaking out of turn for, I don’t know. But like, I mean, he would come on and say the same thing. He would say, it’s the somebody he told me a few months ago, if you’re on tonight’s show, it’s not going to, it’s not what it used to be. Right. My, I he didn’t say this, I’m saying this, but I bet my agent would rather represent somebody who has a million Instagram followers than someone who was just on this Tonight show.
Michael Jamin (00:36:32):
Taylor Williamson (00:36:33):
And has no followers and but has potential and like they, you something special. It’s not the current, it’s a more valuable currency to have a big social media following than to have been on Jimmy Fallon.
Michael Jamin (00:36:46):
Interesting man. It’s changing so much. It’s, but see, to me, I, I would think that gives people hope because it’s like you, you’re more in control of your destiny than you think you are. You meets empowering, you know,
Taylor Williamson (00:36:59):
It’s, to me, it’s stressful for me. It’s stressful because like, I was like climbing this ladder for so many years and then the the then like game changed. Everyone’s on this other ladder. I’m like, what about this one? But this one, everyone’s like, Hey, have fun over there, but we’re over here. So beat them or beat them or join them. What is it? Join them or, I
Michael Jamin (00:37:16):
Don’t know. Well, what is your, like what, what is your goal? What at this point you’re traveling, you work all the time, every you work every week that you wanna work.
Taylor Williamson (00:37:25):
Yeah. You know, it’s confusing coming outta Covid. It’s confusing. I’ve had, I had like some almost things that went to shit cuz of Covid. I had like a thing that was supposed to happen. Like I was gonna start working for Fox. I always liked wrestling. You know, we talked about that and like, yeah. And I was gonna start being a correspondent on Fox primetime being like a daily show type correspondent. But for wrestling stuff, like talking to fans and wrestlers and celebrities and like that kind of thing. So I was gonna be on Saturday night primetime Fox WrestleMania 2020. And like, and then if that went well, it’d be, I’d be on the weekly Fox Sports show after that.
Michael Jamin (00:37:59):
But why is that? Why
Taylor Williamson (00:38:01):
Is that Covid Covid shut down Covid? No, no audiences, you know, so then, right, that was on Fox. And then since, by the time then Fox canceled the show I was gonna be on before Covid stopped being closing down everything. And then by the time fans came back last year, w b kind of transitioned to n b nbc. So Fox is kind of like, we’re not gonna keep making this kind of stuff cuz you’re with
Michael Jamin (00:38:26):
Nbc. Well, why do you care? The, because is it more about the exposure about the moneys about the lifestyle or, you know, cause that’s, it would’ve Fox comedy,
Taylor Williamson (00:38:33):
But I would’ve gotten to be a, a comedian. I would’ve gotten to be Taylor being silly. I wouldn’t be work. That wasn’t a job working for ww it would’ve been a job with Fox Uhhuh <affirmative>. So I would’ve been same as Frank Callo and Rob Riggle do for NFL’s Sunday, you know.
Michael Jamin (00:38:48):
Oh, I didn’t know that. Frank Callo is
Taylor Williamson (00:38:49):
That? Yeah, he’s, I mean, Frank’s been doing that for a year, for 15 years, probably. Like, oh, John Madden impression got like, blew him up. Yeah. That’s probably, that’s probably bigger for him than Matt TV maybe.
Michael Jamin (00:38:59):
Taylor Williamson (00:39:00):
Sounds interesting. So, so that would’ve been a thing that led to more hosting opportunities and just like, I’m so grateful for America’s Got Talent, but my struggle has been I, I’m always confused on these things. Am I supposed to talk about how great I am and how great perfect things.
Michael Jamin (00:39:14):
We, we talked, we’re honest here on this podcast,
Taylor Williamson (00:39:17):
<Laugh>. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think, I think it’s important to share stuff. And that’s a, that’s honestly another confusing thing in this business too, is it used to be, I remember talking to Tommy John again about this. Do you know Tommy?
Michael Jamin (00:39:28):
Taylor Williamson (00:39:29):
He’s a brilliant standup who’s just become a superstar TV writer, producer, Uhhuh <affirmative>. And but he’s like this killer stand up. And but I remember talking to him, we did Last Comic Standing in TW 2010, and I remember him saying, I don’t respond to fan mail. You gotta pretend Brian Regan doesn’t turn to fan mail. You gotta be like, you’re Mick Jagger. You know, you gotta make the crowd think that you’re famous. Like that’s the, that’s the attitude that people had. You know, like,
Michael Jamin (00:39:54):
But now it’s not that.
Taylor Williamson (00:39:55):
Now it’s like if you don’t return an email, like, or a DM or don’t resp, people think you’re a jerk sometimes, you know? Is
Michael Jamin (00:40:01):
That right? You’re supposed to respond.
Taylor Williamson (00:40:03):
It’s confusing, especially during Covid, everyone’s doing Instagram lives and interacting and stuff and like mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, I don’t know. I I need you. I don’t know, people, people wanna be friends with you now or feel like they’re friends with you. Yeah. I don’t know if there’s a point to this, but oh yeah. So now, but then now also people want to hear artists be vulnerable and talk about like, yeah, things are hard right now. Like yeah, like Covid shut down my career. I couldn’t work for a year. Like, right. Some people, I don’t know. They, they leaned into the TikTok and all that stuff. And for me, that wasn’t healthy for me, for my brain to just go hard on that. And, but anyways, it is a confusing business and but I have a lot of cool things going on too, and a lot of potential things. And
Michael Jamin (00:40:48):
So why did you, because you’re from San Diego, so why did you move to LA then for that reason to be more connected to other opportunities?
Taylor Williamson (00:40:55):
I moved when I was 18 and I had to go to college. Oh. And I got into Cal State Northridge one of the greatest schools in the country. It’s like Harvard. It’s like Harvard and Harvard
Michael Jamin (00:41:05):
On the highway.
Taylor Williamson (00:41:07):
Michael Jamin (00:41:08):
Taylor Williamson (00:41:08):
Is that what they call it?
Michael Jamin (00:41:10):
<Laugh>? Maybe. I, they call the school that they don’t call that
Taylor Williamson (00:41:13):
I’ve never heard of. That’s funny. But yeah. So I got, but it was my excuse to move to LA and I, I wanted to be, well, I thought that the owner of the comedy store’s daughter likes me. I thought I was gonna be like, I was so a little bit too tenacious, like cringeworthy going for it, you know, like I remember calling the comedy store saying, I took Sandy’s comedy workshop. <Laugh>
Michael Jamin (00:41:33):
Taylor Williamson (00:41:34):
Yeah. And you get it. But just knowing,
Michael Jamin (00:41:35):
But you’re a kid.
Taylor Williamson (00:41:36):
I’m a kid. But like, just knowing who is answering out the fucking bitter door like phone guy, like, yeah, thanks buddy. You know what I mean? Like, they were nice to me. Actually, I remember I talked to the guy who, I think it was Duncan Trussel, who’s a great comic. I think he was the talent booker at the time. Anyways. But I moved to LA and then I went to New York for a couple years. But now you don’t have to live anywhere really. It’s really Right. My, my girlfriend’s an actress. She’s living in Atlanta now. And she’s on big shows. She’s on huge shows. But like, that’s where you don’t because they they film in Atlanta. Right. You don’t have to, you don’t have to. It’s really weird cuz everything I’ve <laugh>, I’m talking like I’m 70, but like everything, the rules, it’s completely like, like, like an, it’s like a, like an earthquake and everything is all different now.
Michael Jamin (00:42:27):
Taylor Williamson (00:42:28):
I can, and it’s not bad at all. It’s, it’s good in many ways, but it’s confusing for like an old man like me. Like, wait, this is how it is. This must be how racist people feel. You know, like, yeah,
Michael Jamin (00:42:39):
Taylor Williamson (00:42:39):
We like diverse, we like minorities. Now what?
Michael Jamin (00:42:44):
But what I want have other things. I wanna men get to you cuz I, you know, so much to,
Taylor Williamson (00:42:49):
I don’t sound sad, do I? I’m, I I think it’s information to share with a fellow artist,
Michael Jamin (00:42:54):
Listeners. I, I think this is super interesting. Maybe I, I love this conversation.
Taylor Williamson (00:42:58):
I got a puppy for the people watching. It was a cute puppy.
Michael Jamin (00:43:00):
I don’t think that’s a dog though,
Taylor Williamson (00:43:02):
Michael Jamin (00:43:03):
How dare you?
Taylor Williamson (00:43:04):
I enjoy your humor most of the time. But when you talk about the love of my life is beautiful. She’s Jewish by the way. She says happy Hanukkah. What
Michael Jamin (00:43:12):
Is your name again? Your dog?
Taylor Williamson (00:43:13):
This is Betty.
Michael Jamin (00:43:14):
Betty. I didn’t know that. I didn’t know that was her name.
Taylor Williamson (00:43:17):
Michael Jamin (00:43:18):
You don’t know why is she squint? Why is she why is she squinting like that? Why is she eye fucking me like that
Taylor Williamson (00:43:22):
Sir? How dare you? She’s, she’s falling asleep cuz she’s comfortable looking in your eyes.
Michael Jamin (00:43:28):
Oh, she’s, ah, she’s in transplant my eyes. I wanna talk because I wanna talk about how you transitioned from writing just jokes. Like you’re saying you wanna be like, do a Mitch Headberg head.
Taylor Williamson (00:43:38):
Oh, that transition.
Michael Jamin (00:43:39):
Yes. But then not the other one. Not the yeah, not the other one, but you kind of, how you found your voice.
Taylor Williamson (00:43:46):
Yeah. That’s one of those other things that people go, like, when people say how long does it take? There’s no rules, but like how long does it takes you to find your voice? I think Pan, I could be making up a complete story, but I feel like he said it took 20 years for him to become like, to really find his thing, whatever, while people say 10 years, whatever, there’s no rules for anything. Like you could have a car that’s 10 years old, but you can drive it three times. That’s not the same as someone who does 500 shows a year and hustles whatever. But like, and some people have, we’ve all, I started comedy when I was 17 and I was, wasn’t a full human. So like I, I didn’t know have things to ex life experience to talk about things. Everyone’s and everyone’s lives are different.
Whatever. There’s people who start, there’s this special guy who’s he just passed away, but he was in his eighties shoot, I’m gonna find his name before we hang up on this cuz he’s so special. He is worth mentioning. But he was 80 in his eighties doing standup comedy and he started, and he had all this to talk about and it was really cool. And I’m gonna talk to you while looking his name, but how did I find my voice? Is that the question? Yeah, yeah. I dunno. You just live your life and you keep doing it. And like the, my favorite compliment I get, and the first time I got this was really made me happy. Someone said, you’re the same onstage as offstage. Like, well,
Michael Jamin (00:45:02):
But I would say though, from watching you, I would say you’re onstage, you’re 10% more than
Taylor Williamson (00:45:07):
Yes, you are off stage. I mean, the way you’re,
You’re an observant Jewish comedy writer. So you can see, you can see that. Yeah. Ideally it’s you with the volume turned up, you know? Right, right. So yeah, like, but I used to be, if someone’s bored and wants to see it, like my first Craig Ferguson appearances on YouTube. So if you’d having Taylor Williamson, Craig Ferguson in 2007, I tried not to smile. That was my shtick. And like, that’s the problem, like, cool problem. Like, it’s not good or bad, but being seen early, you’re being seen while before you know who you are. But then, as you know, as a writer or artist, this is always so frustrating to me. But now I try to look, I I have to remind myself that it’s a positive thing. This is what, this is what I got from the comedy workshop. Sandy Shore said to me, rest in peace, Sandy.
She said, after my set, I destroyed my, my first set I demolished like, like it was ridiculous. But I’m saying that not to practice sound like an asshole. But my point being, it went so well. And then I walked up stage and she said to me, in six months, you’ll be embarrassed by that. And I was like, fuck you lady. That’s my head in my head, you know? Right. I didn’t know what she’s talking about, but I’ve learned, and I still feel like that when I listen to a tape of my, I record all my stats on the audio. I look, I, if I listen to some of them from a year ago, I used to go, Ooh. But that’s good. That means you’re getting better. You know, you’re
Michael Jamin (00:46:28):
Growing. How often, how do, how often do you write new material and how do you go about writing the material?
Taylor Williamson (00:46:34):
I used to be really good writer, like writing every day and all that stuff. And then cause I’m more, I really see myself as a joke teller, you know? And oh, by the way, answer your question is, you’ll see how I evolve the second time’s on Craig first, and I’m smile. I’m trying to smile, I’m trying on purpose to smile, and then I still remind myself to smile on stage. Right. And I remind Why
Michael Jamin (00:46:56):
Do you feel like you have to, why do you feel like you’re not smiling?
Taylor Williamson (00:46:59):
By the way, Marty Ross is the guy in his eighties who’s really special. Look up m a r t y, Marty Ross. He’s an 80 year old comedian. Anyways. But and and I, I think it’s my, I was always just appalled by, I had such extreme judgment for comedians who walk on stage, like, whoa, I’m a comedian. You know? Like, I love Robin William. Like, like I love the legendary guys like that. But like, like I would do open mics and I would watch a guy go on stage and just b like give it his all. And there’s two people in the crowd. And like, it just made me so uncomfortable. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, this is clearly my problem, not theirs, you know? But I think I have a, I don’t know, I, one of my struggles as a performer is I, I don’t know, I don’t know how to articulate it. Like, I feed off the audience. Like, if the audience likes me, I work harder and I do better. Yeah. But if they don’t like me, I kind of have like a Fuck you. I don’t, I don’t care. You know? Right. well,
Michael Jamin (00:47:57):
How do you go about writing your material then?
Taylor Williamson (00:47:59):
Yeah. I don’t, I, I’ve gone kind of lazy lately in the last 15 years, <laugh>. But like, I kind of work out on stage. I have ideas. I mean, it used to be even beginning of my lazy face, Twitter, remember Twitter used to be for jokes and stuff. Yeah. I was just like, oh, that tweet did good. I’m gonna try to turn that into a bit. But the problem with tweets, from my experience, for me, it was more premises than punchlines. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, like, I remember I had some joke, some tweet, they got a lot of traction. I forgot what it was, but something about like,
This cop keeps following me. He must really like me. Or I don’t know what the joke was, whatever. But I remember just saying it on stage and it bombed. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But I re I realized, oh, it’s a premise. Right. It’s not the funny part. Right. So that was confusing to me. But now I, I write ideas in my notepad just randomly. Then I go on stage and I fuck around and I kind of sandwich new ideas between between jokes that work already. So I have a, I go, I have a good opener. I open strong and then I might do two, two jokes. I know work, and then I’ll just ramble on something new. Cause I’m also trying to become less jokey. I’m trying to become story storyteller guy, which is very, very terrifying to me. And I still haven’t figured it out.
Michael Jamin (00:49:18):
That’s interesting. So, because you don’t wanna just constantly be testing out material because you wanna people, you also wanna show people your best stuff cuz
Taylor Williamson (00:49:26):
The Yeah. Like when people comes, and that’s something I, I blows me away that like, there’s comedians that don’t do, like I work out the comedy store in LA mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and like, we still have to bring it. Like, you can’t go, it’s not open mic night for me, but it is for, I don’t know, George Wallace if he comes in, you know what I mean? Like it can be, but he’s still gonna be funny cuz he’s George Wallace, you know, but who I don’t, I think I’ve seen there once in my life. I don’t know why I’m using his name because I don’t think he was gonna la but like but there’s like, in LA you work out and then when, when I go on the road mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, it’s 93% ready to go. Right. And if the crowd’s with me, I mean, I’ll, I’ll do something else. But I think as you get better and do this long, you don’t bomb anymore.
Michael Jamin (00:50:13):
Taylor Williamson (00:50:14):
You kind of know how to, like, I know how to recover from a joke not working. Like I, I can bomb have a joke bomb, and then I can say something and then the crowd’s with me and then I can move on. Like, like it never happened, you know? Right, right. Like, I don’t let it, it destroy me or the performance.
Michael Jamin (00:50:28):
Yeah. I remember we, we saw you. I don’t remember where we but club we saw you at, but
Taylor Williamson (00:50:32):
You probably the improv,
Michael Jamin (00:50:34):
I always forget. No, no, that’s not Melrose. I don’t think, I don’t think it was that one. I thought it was like, maybe the comedy story. Is that possible? Or
Taylor Williamson (00:50:41):
Michael Jamin (00:50:43):
But you were so comfortable on stage, it really was like, wow, this guy’s really, he knows what he’s doing, you know? Oh, thanks man. Yeah. You really knew what you were doing. You were very Yeah, I, I, I know Steve. I felt the same way. I was like, wow, this guy’s tight. You know?
Taylor Williamson (00:50:56):
Oh, hey, thanks. No, I was always so excited to work with you guys. Like, you guys are my kind of people just like smart comedy writers. Like, it’s still my favorite style of comedy jokes. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> just like, like,
Michael Jamin (00:51:08):
Well why do you wanna get into a storytelling? Cause that, that’s so interesting to me that you wanna
Taylor Williamson (00:51:12):
Do that. I’ve wanted to figure it out for a while cuz one of my problems is, or my, I’m jealous. Like if Louis CK has a new joke mm-hmm.
Michael Jamin (00:51:19):
Taylor Williamson (00:51:20):
He’s seven minutes.
Michael Jamin (00:51:21):
Taylor Williamson (00:51:22):
If I have a new joke, it’s 12 seconds. Yeah.
Michael Jamin (00:51:24):
Taylor Williamson (00:51:25):
And, but my joke will hit hard. Like, Dan Minz is one of my favorites. You know Dan Minz? No, he’s a great standup, brilliant standup, but he’s Tina on Bob’s burgers, but he’s also like a brilliant co TV writer and producer and stuff.
Michael Jamin (00:51:37):
Taylor Williamson (00:51:38):
Best jokes you’ll ever hear, like, so good. But like I heard Seinfeld and Tom Papa talking about this. But like, people don’t, in general, the masses don’t want jokes in, they don’t wanna watch Rodney Dangerfield. They don’t wanna watch someone go on stage and just talk about stupid things that aren’t real. Like the mince goes on stage. So he’ll talk about his girlfriend then he’ll say, my wife just died. Then he’ll say like, I’m single <laugh>, but it’s just sick. It’s so funny. Just, you’ll just hear great jokes that make No, there’s no, it’s, it’s, but I, people
Michael Jamin (00:52:10):
Don’t, that’s so interesting because I feel that, go ahead.
Taylor Williamson (00:52:12):
I’m, I’m sorry. But pe people just want to, people want to hear you talk. You know what my cousin said to me? And he’s really smart, funny guy. And like he’s talking, he’s like goofing with me, but serious. He’s like, Taylor, once you start being a real comedian, you’re gonna become so famous. And what he’s, what he meant by that is like, so my parents got divorced and I have mental illness in my family and I don’t just people who just talk about their tragedies, their STDs, their fucking, all this shit that you quote private stuff. I don’t, you know what I’m trying to say? Yeah. People want to hear that stuff. And the comedians who are blowing up and selling 15,000 seats, which never existed before, podcasts and Netflix with, with within re with, with a few exceptions, they’re all talking about vulnerable stuff that, oh my gosh. I truly don’t even wanna talk about. But it makes people happy and feel seen and
Michael Jamin (00:53:11):
Taylor Williamson (00:53:12):
And they feel connected and that’s what people want. And so I don’t have to do that. But it’s interesting to me and like, I’m, I’m a unfortunately, but fortunately for our, I have a lot of fucked up shit in my family and my life and stuff. So I feel like it’s, it is worth exploring, but it is like, I feel like I’m at open mic ni 91 when I start talking about something real.
Michael Jamin (00:53:38):
But you see, when I, you know, I, I, I did stand up in college and I moved out here, I did for 10 minutes and then I was like, I just wanna be a comedy writer. But, so I’ve always loved standup, but to me it always felt like it, it still feels like empty calories and it’s the real, the meaty stuff, the emotional stuff, the personal stuff. I was like, that’s, you know, that’s, that’s what I feed on. Like, that’s why it’s so interesting to me, you know?
Taylor Williamson (00:54:01):
Yeah. Yeah. Like, I mean
Michael Jamin (00:54:06):
That’s, that’s the storytelling,
Taylor Williamson (00:54:08):
Right? And and, and that’s what you’re up to now, right?
Michael Jamin (00:54:10):
Taylor Williamson (00:54:11):
That’s so cool, man. I gotta come to your show. I really want to see You have multiple shows, right?
Michael Jamin (00:54:17):
We did. I did, we did eight shows in LA then two in Boston, and then we’ll start touring a little more soon when the book is out.
Taylor Williamson (00:54:25):
But it’s, it’s, I saw you posting of different themes. Yeah. That’s insane.
Michael Jamin (00:54:31):
Yeah. Yeah, it is. It’s long. I wanna talk to you more about it off the air after
Taylor Williamson (00:54:34):
When we’re done. Yeah. I don’t wanna talk to you. I don’t wanna talk to you off the
Michael Jamin (00:54:36):
Air. Oh, what you’re gonna have to <laugh>. So, cuz I want more, I want more your your opinion on stuff, but yeah, that’s what I’m doing. And yeah, it’s just, it’s so interesting.
Taylor Williamson (00:54:46):
So for example, by the way, like someone like yourself, like you’re not, you’re so acclaimed as a TV writer and all this, but you’re not known at all to comedy clubs as a standup. But you’re somebody, yeah. Okay, that’s fine. But you’re somebody that you could hit up a comedy club and say, I could sell 200 tickets or 150 tickets in Baltimore. I give me 80%. Here’s
Michael Jamin (00:55:10):
The thing though, detail. I don’t, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t think I want to. The minute you go to a comedy club, people are okay, we’re gonna heckle this guy. Whereas you go to a theater, it’s a totally different experience. You
Taylor Williamson (00:55:21):
Know? No comedians don’t wanna be in comedy clubs either. That’s, that’s why comedy clubs are turning into like, like they’re some of are in clus with comedy clubs anymore. They’re trying to be like performing arts performance arts center kind of thing. Trying to make a classier and bring people back to, to comedy clubs.
Michael Jamin (00:55:35):
That’s interesting. But they’re still serving alcohol. Right. And they’re still having, and people are still heckling. Right.
Taylor Williamson (00:55:41):
And you know, the problem with social media that is driving me crazy and I sound like an old bitter scrooge again, people are blowing up by filming them. Their heckler comedian destroys heckler. Yeah.
Michael Jamin (00:55:55):
Taylor Williamson (00:55:55):
I’m, every time I see one of those, I’m like, what the fuck are you doing? Why? You’re encouraging hecklers. So comedians are going on stage and they’re f cause you one, you don’t wanna give away your material for reasons we talked about. Yes. It’s good if your joke blows up, but you’d also prefer not to post your joke. So you’re people posting the improv moments between their jokes, which isn’t comedy. I mean it’s fun. It’s fun. I get it. It’s fun and it’s spontaneous, whatever. But now people are heckling more and people getting attack on stage. Yeah. Are they? Yes. Yes. And they’re getting, people are getting attacked on stage more cause people are filming it and posting it and like, there’s, I mean, God bless her and I don’t know her and I’m not blaming her and why not do so if this happened? So zero much respect to her. But like she got on Jimmy Kimmel cuz someone threw a beer at her and then she, she tried saw
Michael Jamin (00:56:44):
That and and she handled it well.
Taylor Williamson (00:56:45):
Yeah, yeah. Handle, I didn’t see, I’m, I’m very ha I don’t, I’m being much respect, but it’s like, that’s how you get on TV now. Yeah. So now you are hoping you get heckled or have a glass. I got, I had someone throw a glass at me, but once, but I didn’t film it.
Michael Jamin (00:56:58):
<Laugh> it was worthless. Yeah.
Taylor Williamson (00:57:01):
But like, we’ve all had that kind of stuff. But like, I think it’s lowering the art form and it’s also making it more dangerous artistically and physically. So I do obviously like theaters are classy and the better thing about a theater crowd, a hundred percent of people came to see you. Right. There’s not gonna be a bachelorette party or a birthday party or people are Yes. Wait, why aren’t you fun here? Why are you being emotional? Right. Yeah.
Michael Jamin (00:57:22):
Right. Because people have asked me, will we perform your my club, my co No, I’m not gonna perform in your comedy club. I don’t, that’s not, it’s the wrong crowd. No.
Taylor Williamson (00:57:29):
Michael Jamin (00:57:31):
Taylor Williamson (00:57:31):
Although, can’t tell you, I just, I just did a private party the other night. Yeah. The best gig of my entire life.
Michael Jamin (00:57:37):
Taylor Williamson (00:57:38):
Financially <laugh> Uhhuh and like, and I, I opened for this famous, I don’t know if I should say, I don’t know. I’m trying to be respectful. Sure. But I opened for like a really famous SNL guy at some in San Diego at someone’s Christmas party. And like, they’re all just in, I didn’t know I thought it was a business. Cause I do private events of businesses, but I showed up and it was like someone’s house and I was like, what it was, and they’re all wearing onesies and stuff. There was a bunch of rich people. Yeah. And like, they paid the best paid gig of my entire life to open for somebody. I can’t imagine how much he got. I’m just like, this is what it’s all about. Yeah. Fuck. I’m trying to sell out big theaters and all this stuff. Just rich people who own McDonald’s. If you guys wanna, if you guys wanna have me come before for your Christmas parties, I’m available. That’s my new Yeah,
Michael Jamin (00:58:23):
Me too. Do you wanna book both of us? <Laugh> Rich? Any rich people listening to my podcast?
Taylor Williamson (00:58:29):
No, dude, it is why I even when I was like, like I’m proud of where I, what I’m doing and stuff, but like my status after American of Talent was, I, it was boy bigger than it is now. Just how it goes. You know? And like I never got, I got twice as much as I ever got for events back then.
Michael Jamin (00:58:47):
Oh really? Yeah. So your, so your, your rate has actually gone down since then because your
Taylor Williamson (00:58:51):
No, my rate, I’m saying my rate doubled.
Michael Jamin (00:58:53):
You wait. After American got Talent, it doubled and it’s still where it
Taylor Williamson (00:58:57):
Is. No, I’m saying, I’m saying my rate <laugh>, I got this venue, this, these people paid me twice as much as I’ve ever been paid when I was blowing up.
Michael Jamin (00:59:09):
Okay. no. Okay. You’re referring to it today. I see you’re the, the show you just
Taylor Williamson (00:59:12):
Did. The point is that I have a good agent,
Michael Jamin (00:59:16):
<Laugh>. That was never the point. <Laugh>.
Taylor Williamson (00:59:18):
The point is, I’m, I’m rich until my air con I have to pay off my broken air conditioning
Michael Jamin (00:59:23):
Taylor Williamson (00:59:24):
Being an adult is crazy. Like, I literally just made a bunch of money and my, my air conditioner broke and that’s 10,000. It’s probably $9,000. I live in a townhouse.
Michael Jamin (00:59:34):
Oh, you own a tent house. Oh.
Taylor Williamson (00:59:36):
And I own my, I townhouse and they have to get a crane and put on the roof and all this stuff and
Michael Jamin (00:59:41):
Oh, aw, that sucks. That
Taylor Williamson (00:59:44):
Sucks. But being adult’s terrible. I don’t kid, I got a dog, but like,
Michael Jamin (00:59:48):
That’s a dog.
Taylor Williamson (00:59:50):
Sir, this is
Michael Jamin (00:59:51):
Taylor Williamson (00:59:52):
What is wrong? Do you not have love in your heart?
Michael Jamin (00:59:54):
No. No. I, I had a dog. She was a golden retriever, so I know what a dog looks like. That’s all I’m saying.
Taylor Williamson (00:59:59):
This is, you’re this is a hate crime. This my dog’s Jewish and this is offensive.
Michael Jamin (01:00:04):
Well, I’m just saying it’s you know, let me see the purse that you carry her in <laugh>.
Taylor Williamson (01:00:09):
I carry her in a backpack. I’ve been encouraged. I I’ve been encouraged to get one of those doggy Bjorn. I did it for like a day and I was like, I can’t, I can’t, doesn’t
Michael Jamin (01:00:20):
Isn’t the dog supposed to walk? It’s like exercise for them.
Taylor Williamson (01:00:24):
<Laugh> the problem. My dog is, she’s 4.9 pounds Chihuahua. Yeah. And it’s like carrying, it’s like walking a feather.
Michael Jamin (01:00:32):
Yeah. Right. It’s
Taylor Williamson (01:00:33):
A little, it’s a little bit it’s not as if you’re trying to get business done.
Michael Jamin (01:00:38):
Taylor Williamson (01:00:39):
Backpacks efficient. I walk, I take her to the park and she runs around.
Michael Jamin (01:00:42):
That’s nice to you.
Taylor Williamson (01:00:43):
That’s nice. How dare you shame me and judge my, my opinion.
Michael Jamin (01:00:47):
This is Taylor. This has been a, a very interesting talk. I
Taylor Williamson (01:00:52):
Can I do a good, I feel like I came off cynical or
Michael Jamin (01:00:55):
No, I don’t. This is gonna be gold. I think everyone’s gonna love this is gonna, this is gonna blow up. This is gonna put you back on a map. Really. We’re gonna get you a lot of rich people gigs.
Taylor Williamson (01:01:03):
Hey rich people, please hire me to perform at your events.
Michael Jamin (01:01:07):
Well let’s tell, tell people how to find you on social media and stuff.
Taylor Williamson (01:01:12):
I am on Instagram and Twitter and TikTok. You’re the like, people are like, I gotta talk to my little sister to figure out how TikTok works. And I’m like, no. Call Michael Jamin
Michael Jamin (01:01:23):
Taylor Williamson (01:01:24):
That’s the TikTok star I know. But I’m at Taylor Comedy and Facebook, Taylor Williamson and taylor williamson.com. I was runner up on America’s Got Talent and I was on last comic standing on some of other things. But if you go to my website, I have cl clips of all the things and I’m on tour. When is this gonna air?
Michael Jamin (01:01:43):
Probably, no, probably about a month or so. We’ll drop it.
Taylor Williamson (01:01:46):
Well show’s coming up in Atlanta and Boca. Okay. Shalom Boca. Yep. And then what’s the other one? Green Greensville One of the Carolinas.
Michael Jamin (01:01:57):
But we can sign up on your website for all your touring dates and stuff and
Taylor Williamson (01:02:00):
Calgary, Alberta, Canada, somewhere in Michigan.
Michael Jamin (01:02:04):
Look at the sky. Listen, you got a lot of mileage on your
Taylor Williamson (01:02:07):
Frequent flyer. I gotta pay a mortgage. I gotta feed a dog.
Michael Jamin (01:02:10):
That dog doesn’t eat much.
Taylor Williamson (01:02:12):
She gets the fancy expensive food, but she’s so small. She’s so small that it’s not, it’s it works, you know? Yeah. Anyways. But can I say, can I tell people though that I like getting, I got to, we, we, we came up with a show together and it was such a wonderful experience. It meant so much to me that that you and your partner believed in me and my idea. Like truly, like it meant the world to me. Huh?
Michael Jamin (01:02:35):
We were off the mark that day <laugh>.
Taylor Williamson (01:02:38):
Why? Like I said, there weren’t many other people interested and then but it meant so much and it was so fun pitching and I felt like I was doing something right with my life and it was turned out to be a big waste of time. <Laugh> and no, but it was, it just some things were just right place, right time and some things are not. And then, yeah. But I’m so grateful it got to work with you, be friends with you and stuff and it’s been really such a pleasure watching you to go on your new journey. And I take full credit for you for it, by the way, cuz we had a talk like two years ago and, and I told you not to do what you’re doing, but I told you something else and then you’re doing this instead. And so I feel like I don’t
Michael Jamin (01:03:13):
Remember what you told me I should. That we have to review on that. A review on when we get off the air review. Cause I have a lot of questions for you, but more not
Taylor Williamson (01:03:21):
I’m, my point is I’m taking credit cause I’m taking credit cause you didn’t do what I said, but then you did something else. Cause you’re like, I’m not gonna do that. I I pushed you in a different direction.
Michael Jamin (01:03:28):
Yeah. Which is just as important. Bad advice is just as good as important, as good as thing. <Laugh>.
Taylor Williamson (01:03:33):
Michael Jamin (01:03:34):
Taylor, I thank you so much for being on the podcast. Everyone just go follow us guy. He’s a sweet, very funny guy and I just think the world of you’re a good dude, man. You’re a good dude.
Taylor Williamson (01:03:44):
Hey, thanks man. Likewise. And let’s hang out with the, just shoot me a lady sometime.
Michael Jamin (01:03:49):
Which one is that? Who? Laura?
Taylor Williamson (01:03:51):
This the star who’s, what’s her name?
Michael Jamin (01:03:53):
Laura and Jacomo. Wendy Mallek. Who
Taylor Williamson (01:03:55):
Can we hang, can we hang out both of them?
Michael Jamin (01:03:57):
<Laugh>? I’ve worked. Yeah, they’re both lovely. They’re both amazing people. So
Taylor Williamson (01:04:02):
I, we we’ll, we’ll get dinner soon. Yeah.
Michael Jamin (01:04:05):
Okay, Taylor, thank you so much everyone. And
Taylor Williamson (01:04:08):
Michael Jamin (01:04:09):
And yeah, for everyone. What else? Do I have the table before I sign off? Yeah, go get on my watch list. Michaeljamin.Com/Watchlist is my free weekly newsletter. I sent out tips for the industry and I got a free lesson for screenwriting MichaelJamin.com/Free. And if you wanna see where my show is coming, we’ll be touring. Go to Michael Jamin.com/UpComing to find out where I’ll be in your, when I’ll be in your city. All right, everyone, thanks so much. Until next one. Next time keep writing. Okay.
Phil Hudson (01:04:37):
This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin. If you’d like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving your review, and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today’s subject. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep riding.